California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

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storewanderer
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California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by storewanderer »

http://gvwire.com/2018/01/22/california ... res-wrong/

"In a recent post about California beach litter, GV Wire erroneously compared all littered items made from any type of plastic bag or film (e.g. garbage bags, ice bags, snack packaging bags, grocery/retail bags, Ziploc bags, dry cleaner bags and shrink wrap, etc.) littered in 2010 to just plastic grocery bags littered in 2017.

This claim is incorrect because in 2010 Ocean Conservancy aggregated these different plastic bag or film items into one catch-all category: Plastic Bags. Then, in 2013 Ocean Conservancy started breaking out Plastic Grocery Bags into a separate category, specifically separating them from all the other plastic bag-related items, the latter of which are now referred to as “Other Plastic Bags.”

The recorded number of Plastic Grocery Bags collected only seemed to drop dramatically in 2013 because Ocean Conservancy created two categories from one, thus reducing the number in each."

I was waiting for someone to point this out.

"Using the most recent data provided by Ocean Conservancy, you will see that in 2016 Plastic Grocery Bags made up 1.7% of California litter (12,404 total items collected). In 2017, a little less than a year after SB 270 went into effect, Plastic Grocery Bags made up 1.5% of litter (11,847 total items collected). This represents a 0.2% decrease in Plastic Grocery Bags as a percentage of overall litter."

Then again I hesitate to call this a ban in the first place since I keep getting those super thick plastic bags everywhere I go in California... which are also single use, but now cost .10. They get over-filled so they only have to use one bag, and then puncture. I can't even use most of them for trash since they puncture.
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by mbz321 »

So...what is your point? Even if the statistics are wrong, any reduction in plastic bags seems A-Ok in my book.
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by architect »

mbz321 wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 8:49 am So...what is your point? Even if the statistics are wrong, any reduction in plastic bags seems A-Ok in my book.
What storewanderer is saying is that in reality, the plastic bag ban may not nearly as effective as the so-called "statistics" have made it out to be, as the criteria for determining what constitutes a plastic grocery bag has changed. In addition, even with a lesser number of bags, an equivalent amount if not more plastic may be being used due to the fact that the CA compliant bags are much thicker but are still only practically usable for one use. I actually experienced these thicker bags at both Safeway and Raley's earlier this year at stores in the Lake Tahoe area, they seem to make the ban as a whole a moot point.
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by klkla »

architect wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 4:44 pm What storewanderer is saying is that in reality, the plastic bag ban may not nearly as effective as the so-called "statistics" have made it out to be, as the criteria for determining what constitutes a plastic grocery bag has changed. In addition, even with a lesser number of bags, an equivalent amount if not more plastic may be being used due to the fact that the CA compliant bags are much thicker but are still only practically usable for one use. I actually experienced these thicker bags at both Safeway and Raley's earlier this year at stores in the Lake Tahoe area, they seem to make the ban as a whole a moot point.
Unfortunately this is true. There's very little added value to the thicker bags and there has been no real improvement to the problem.

I don't know what the solution should be. The only thing I can think of is to make them illegal altogether (which I don't see happening).

The best bagging option for saving our planet is to use (and re-use) canvas bags. Paper bags are the next best option but they don't biodegrade in landfills because of the lack of oxygen.
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by mbz321 »

Maybe they should just charge 25 cents per bag to encourage reusable bag use...10 cents obviously doesn't seem to be a deterring factor.

i'm not sure how thick these CA bags are, but I've occasionally purchased a plastic bag from Aldi (also 10 cents) and have been able to use them at least a few dozen times, if not more.
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by storewanderer »

mbz321 wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 5:40 pm Maybe they should just charge 25 cents per bag to encourage reusable bag use...10 cents obviously doesn't seem to be a deterring factor.

i'm not sure how thick these CA bags are, but I've occasionally purchased a plastic bag from Aldi (also 10 cents) and have been able to use them at least a few dozen times, if not more.
I think reusable bags and bag bans got a lot more traction in the higher income places that previously banned the bags on their own accord (not a statewide ban). In some of these places that had few or no bag bans prior to having the statewide ban rammed down their throat, like Orange County, or Placer County, or various in the central valley, I observe many people just buying bags. Many more than I used to see buying bags in, say, San Francisco.

I think San Mateo county charges 25 cents per bag. I'm not sure they allow the super thick plastic bags either... and the policy there applies to ALL retailers.

Still not sure how banning something that is such a small percent of the total waste stream helps anything.
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by klkla »

storewanderer wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 8:26 pm Still not sure how banning something that is such a small percent of the total waste stream helps anything.
It's a bigger problem than that. The problem with plastic bags, or anything plastic for that matter, it that it doesn't biodegrade. As long as we keep manufacturing plastic items that are intended to be discarded immediately the problem will just continue to grow. It's not sustainable. Look at the damage being done to our oceans by plastic and Styrofoam as an example:
https://www.google.com/search?q=plastic ... FrgovSDXGM:
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by storewanderer »

I keep seeing a move toward more plastic items. Maybe the bags got ditched (still not sure how those super thick bags I keep getting in California and only use once fit into this), but the number of items on the grocery shelf in plastic packages seems to continue to increase. In recent years items such as applesauce and certain brands of pickles/relish are now in plastic containers that used to be in glass. Snapple which had been bottled in glass for years switched to plastic last year.

Also I have noticed some places who eliminate foam for food containers replace with some kind of plastic. I guess the plastic is at least better than foam? I know in cities in California with a foam ban, if you go to places like Circle K, or El Pollo Loco, who are typically very "foam heavy" on cups/packaging, they have plastic cups/packages in place of the form. I think the plastic is better than the foam as far as the environment goes.

One thing I do notice however is a move toward smaller package sizes. Specifically, this seems to happen when an item starts to be "Made in China." I was just purchasing some Simply Done Plastic Wrap (ironic given this thread) in a 200 square foot box and the retailer I visited had two different size boxes on the shelf, some bigger looking boxes in the front, and some smaller looking ones in the back. Upon further examination I found the bigger box was "Made in USA" and the smaller box was "Made in China." But both were 200 square foot plastic wrap with the same UPC.

I also think the bag ban has cost the grocers in California money in sales as well as efficiency. Products are now being handled multiple times at checkout when before it was one handling (scan/bag in one motion, now not happening in a lot of cases be it because a customer is not paying extra for bags or because reusable bags are not yet ready when the cashier starts scanning). When it is easier (and cheaper) to order online, go shop at Costco with bigger packages where bags are not necessary, go buy your cleaning/home items at Home Depot who is not subject to a bag ban, or your pet foods at Petsmart who is not subject to the bag ban, it will hurt the grocers.

I don't know why they can't just come up with a biodegradable "single use" plastic bag. These plastic bags are not single use in my family's house and never have been; always reused at least once for trash, pet litter, yard waste, for packing clothes on trips, in some cases to store things...
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by rwsandiego »

storewanderer wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 9:14 pm...I don't know why they can't just come up with a biodegradable "single use" plastic bag. These plastic bags are not single use in my family's house and never have been; always reused at least once for trash, pet litter, yard waste, for packing clothes on trips, in some cases to store things...
I've seen compostable and biodegradable plastic forks, knives, single-serve containers, and even trash bags so there really is no reason grocery bags can't be made of a similar material. If today we had the same level of and commitment to research that brought us petroleum-based plastics in the early 20th century we could have plant-based plastics on a wide scale. Instead, we want to develop apps to solve problems we didn't know we have.
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Re: California Plastic Bag Ban Statistics Figures Misleading

Post by mbz321 »

rwsandiego wrote: January 23rd, 2018, 10:25 pm
I've seen compostable and biodegradable plastic forks, knives, single-serve containers, and even trash bags so there really is no reason grocery bags can't be made of a similar material. If today we had the same level of and commitment to research that brought us petroleum-based plastics in the early 20th century we could have plant-based plastics on a wide scale. Instead, we want to develop apps to solve problems we didn't know we have.

The problem is, despite their claims of being compostable and biodegradable, that only really happens under certain conditions, and in very few instances, will these bags and cups and containers actually degrade. A lot of time, sun/UV light is required over time for these items to break down, and that isn't happening when they are thrown in a landfill.
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