Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by pseudo3d »

veteran+ wrote:
storewanderer wrote:I've thought about it and I've decided the quality of employee is a little risky at this point (and with what the grocers are paying, part time, dart board style scheduling, uniforms that cost quite a bit, etc. it appears there are other jobs that are just as easy to get that pay the same or a little more with a bit better conditions) to properly execute labor intensive perimeter programs well. It may have been less obvious in the low volume Albertsons Stores especially as they were closing tons of stores and had a surplus of experienced employees to "transfer in from closing stores" to the stores staying open who were career people, higher paid, and had good knowledge of their fresh department. But trying this in the busier higher volume Safeways with more new employees and seeing the very mixed execution results shows there is a labor problem: not enough labor, and not high quality enough labor. Safeway developed very formula based programs to account for this issue. Some stores executed the formula better than others but now with these new Albertsons programs what I am seeing is stores that previously executed the old Safeway ways well are now struggling... the stores that were poorly executed for years continue to be poorly executed. No change there.

Sort of like, look at the people working at in N Out and look at the ones at some other fast food place who pays minimum wage. No use naming names. Notice the ones at In N Out are in clean uniforms, smiling, polite, and the food they put out looks pretty neatly prepared and appetizing. Now go over to the other fast food place who pays minimum wage. If done right it also would be on par with In N Out. But they are inconsistent. They are getting what they pay for (minimum wage) so you go in and the employee may or may not be in a clean uniform, the food may or may not be hot, some component of the sandwich may or may not be fresh or even there, they may or may not smile at you.
Great analogy with the fast food companies.

But you forgot one element regarding In N Out.

Their training is probably unique in the fast food world and probably rare in the business world in toto. Their training program has significant military styles imbedded. Their training is not negotiable. The chains of command are not negotiable. Authority is not negotiable. Employee attitudes are carefully monitored as well as customer service encounters.

I have not heard any negatives comments about this style except for those that could not conform or measure up. They just quit without any hard feelings.

Side note: they pay very well and provide great benefits.
With the exception of higher pay, that doesn't sound good for any supermarket that wants to be regionalized. We all know the "My way or the highway" approach at Safeway drove off many people in definitely the acquired stores.
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by storewanderer »

pseudo3d wrote:
Sort of like, look at the people working at in N Out and look at the ones at some other fast food place who pays minimum wage. No use naming names. Notice the ones at In N Out are in clean uniforms, smiling, polite, and the food they put out looks pretty neatly prepared and appetizing. Now go over to the other fast food place who pays minimum wage. If done right it also would be on par with In N Out. But they are inconsistent. They are getting what they pay for (minimum wage) so you go in and the employee may or may not be in a clean uniform, the food may or may not be hot, some component of the sandwich may or may not be fresh or even there, they may or may not smile at you.
Grocers (even Kroger) tend to pay close to minimum wage for deli positions (at least entry level), and turnover is high. I don't think the "old Safeway way" worked particularly well in the acquired stores (that Safeway took over in the late 1990s, like Randalls), as they had too few employees even when volume was higher (Safeway had slashed some 80 hours out of each department). Store uniforms are a mixed bag...I believe the Kroger uniform was free or pretty inexpensive, whereas Safeway's was more expensive, but you got other things from the department free (like an apron/hat)...and frankly, ultimately I had to buy my own shirt for Safeway third party as they were discontinuing the Lifestyle clothing and couldn't get anything in my size.

The need for "high quality labor" is less so since these days (at least at Albertsons/Safeway and likely Kroger too), food preparation has been largely simplified to mixes, boil-in-bags, and things that need to be just thrown in the oven or deep fryer.[/quote]

As stores try to go to more and more prepared foods in store the food preparation has gone back a ways to more in-store prep. Look at what Whole Foods does in its stores and the amount of prep, chefs, equipment, etc. I have no idea what Whole Foods pays its food service employees but I have to assume it is better than minimum wage because they seem to execute things pretty well.

I know Kroger pays quite poorly in deli and this is a real execution hurdle for the stores as they have added in more programs, Boar's Head, more extensive hot foods, etc. I have watched this firsthand at the stores I shop in. You would think these companies would put it together and realize food preparation is a bit of a skill and should be paid more if there is more actual food preparation going on vs. just throwing stuff out of the freezer into the fryer. Not to mention how it costs money to keep having to train people... Safeway tried to do a formula program where there was little prep in store and hopefully it would be consistent from store to store (didn't really work out so well... since they were too stingy with labor).

Is that In N Out military like training program also sort of Disney like?
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by veteran+ »

The In N Out training has very identifiable military traits. The power structure is very much in stone. This is a very disciplined work environment and it may sound or look harsh but the rewards are BIG for the employees.

Disney is just kind of cultish (IMO).
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by storewanderer »

It is interesting to see the difference in how Disney employees are at Disneyland vs. Disney World. Definitely felt more of the cultish feel at Disneyland. Disney World was quite a bit different... even came across a few openly indifferent ones there. None of that at Disneyland! Even if it felt like some of them were scowling behind their painted on smile.

I'm not too familiar with the power structure at In N Out, just see how well they run.
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by veteran+ »

storewanderer wrote:It is interesting to see the difference in how Disney employees are at Disneyland vs. Disney World. Definitely felt more of the cultish feel at Disneyland. Disney World was quite a bit different... even came across a few openly indifferent ones there. None of that at Disneyland! Even if it felt like some of them were scowling behind their painted on smile.

I'm not too familiar with the power structure at In N Out, just see how well they run.
Astute observations on Disney and yes there is a huge difference.

The talent base is very different in Florida. The employees in Florida are not authentically as happy. There are performance issues (both employee and Disney itself) in Florida. There are more customer complaint issues in Florida.

Yes, In N Out is extremely well run and the employees (in the majority) are really happy!
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by Super S »

It seems like Albertsons went on a big cost cutting spree in both bakery and deli during the early 1980s. I remember as stores were remodeled, the donuts moved to self-serve cases (this was not unique to Albertsons though), and for a long time Albertsons was combining the bakery and deli together in one corner of the store (where they would previously be separate), at times with only one person working both. They did start moving them apart again in the early 90s, but it was around that time some of the items went downhill. I also noticed that there seemed to be a higher turnover in those departments as time went on, regardless of location.

Safeway had an odd deli arrangement in many of the Portland area stores from around the late 80s-late 90s where the deli was out in the open taking up floor space, and some of those really looked low budget. Not sure if any of those are left though, as Safeway remodeled things got moved back in to more traditional corner spaces.
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by pseudo3d »

Super S wrote:It seems like Albertsons went on a big cost cutting spree in both bakery and deli during the early 1980s. I remember as stores were remodeled, the donuts moved to self-serve cases (this was not unique to Albertsons though), and for a long time Albertsons was combining the bakery and deli together in one corner of the store (where they would previously be separate), at times with only one person working both. They did start moving them apart again in the early 90s, but it was around that time some of the items went downhill. I also noticed that there seemed to be a higher turnover in those departments as time went on, regardless of location.

Safeway had an odd deli arrangement in many of the Portland area stores from around the late 80s-late 90s where the deli was out in the open taking up floor space, and some of those really looked low budget. Not sure if any of those are left though, as Safeway remodeled things got moved back in to more traditional corner spaces.
I know that a few of the Houston Division Safeway stores either prior to spinning off or just after spinning off (though I'm sure they would've had a hand in remodeling it) had the bakery and deli (the florist too I believe) in the center of the store. It was probably kind of cool and trendy but in reality I've found it a pain to navigate (in the names they later operated under). I've always wondered if there were other Safeway stores like that.

Kroger also had put the deli and bakery together in a corner of the store in the early 1980s as part of the Greenhouse program, though those stores were generally smaller than Albertsons' average.
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by wnetmacman »

pseudo3d wrote:Kroger also had put the deli and bakery together in a corner of the store in the early 1980s as part of the Greenhouse program, though those stores were generally smaller than Albertsons' average.
Kroger pairing up the Deli and Bakery goes further back than that, as most Superstores and Family Centers also had combination departments.

Albertsons is hit and miss; some stores are combined, and some stores are not, depending on the era the store was built during. Most stores post 1996-ish for Albertsons are split. Safeway, in North Texas, was always combined in the same area, but they were separate departments.

Even Winn-Dixie, who has long been notorious for the Deli-Bakery arrangement, flirted with splitting them in the early Marketplace designs through the late 90's, but ended up re-combining them again in most stores. Some of these splits resulted in the bakery being a floating department in a sort of hallway where the two departments faced each other. There was a back wall on the bakery that butted up to the grocery area, and the front faced the deli, which was on the outside wall of the store.
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by klkla »

Super S wrote:Safeway had an odd deli arrangement in many of the Portland area stores from around the late 80s-late 90s where the deli was out in the open taking up floor space, and some of those really looked low budget. Not sure if any of those are left though, as Safeway remodeled things got moved back in to more traditional corner spaces.
Safeway was really late getting into the Service Deli business in a serious way and the 'island-style' deli was pretty common in all divisions during the 1980's because it could be easily adapted to existing stores with lower construction costs (although I saw it in new builds, as well). Vons briefly used this concept when they did remodels in smaller stores after they acquired Safeway's SoCal division also.
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Re: Baker City, OR to get a second Safeway

Post by architect »

wnetmacman wrote:
pseudo3d wrote:Kroger also had put the deli and bakery together in a corner of the store in the early 1980s as part of the Greenhouse program, though those stores were generally smaller than Albertsons' average.
Kroger pairing up the Deli and Bakery goes further back than that, as most Superstores and Family Centers also had combination departments.

Albertsons is hit and miss; some stores are combined, and some stores are not, depending on the era the store was built during. Most stores post 1996-ish for Albertsons are split. Safeway, in North Texas, was always combined in the same area, but they were separate departments.

Even Winn-Dixie, who has long been notorious for the Deli-Bakery arrangement, flirted with splitting them in the early Marketplace designs through the late 90's, but ended up re-combining them again in most stores. Some of these splits resulted in the bakery being a floating department in a sort of hallway where the two departments faced each other. There was a back wall on the bakery that butted up to the grocery area, and the front faced the deli, which was on the outside wall of the store.
There are actually multiple former Winn-Dixie's which were sold to Kroger in DFW which retain the split design you mentioned (stores in Addison and Grand Prairie for sure, with many other potential locations scattered in Mesquite, Arlington and Hurst). In the Addison store though, the bakery and deli are actually swapped if I remember correctly, with the deli being in the island. This is the norm with most newer Kroger and Tom Thumb locations around here too, where the two departments will face each other, and one will back up to the grocery aisles.
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