Target to close 11 stores before year end

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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by storewanderer »

I have always felt Target was a bit of a joke. For all the bad reputations that Wal Mart has regarding many things (labor, putting small businesses out of business, etc.), Target operates in the same manner. What is even more interesting is typically Wal Mart's hourly employee wages are actually higher than Target, Wal Mart has more management in its stores than Target (higher paid positions), and Target has the same old thing of hiring mostly part time help, and all of the other things that Wal Mart is routinely "accused of doing" that are such bad things and make them an evil company.

With that said, Target throughout the 90's and into the early 00's seemed to be trend connected and have the right items at the right prices at the right time. They located stores in the right neighborhoods (never tried to serve any of the rough neighborhoods Wal Mart goes into, and in some cases has failed in) to capture this customer and it seems things worked out well for them for quite a while.

I believe Target lost its way when they started the "P Fresh" remodel program. The new store layouts did not make sense, the product mix stopped making sense, and the store remodels often did not flow well or present what used to be Target's stronger categories as well as previously. It seems like the trend right merchandise was in less demand as the economy faltered, and it was also not being presented as well in the store or highlighted as well, a double hit to that previous strong point.

Then there was Canada...
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by arizonaguy »

storewanderer wrote:I have always felt Target was a bit of a joke. For all the bad reputations that Wal Mart has regarding many things (labor, putting small businesses out of business, etc.), Target operates in the same manner. What is even more interesting is typically Wal Mart's hourly employee wages are actually higher than Target, Wal Mart has more management in its stores than Target (higher paid positions), and Target has the same old thing of hiring mostly part time help, and all of the other things that Wal Mart is routinely "accused of doing" that are such bad things and make them an evil company.

With that said, Target throughout the 90's and into the early 00's seemed to be trend connected and have the right items at the right prices at the right time. They located stores in the right neighborhoods (never tried to serve any of the rough neighborhoods Wal Mart goes into, and in some cases has failed in) to capture this customer and it seems things worked out well for them for quite a while.

I believe Target lost its way when they started the "P Fresh" remodel program. The new store layouts did not make sense, the product mix stopped making sense, and the store remodels often did not flow well or present what used to be Target's stronger categories as well as previously. It seems like the trend right merchandise was in less demand as the economy faltered, and it was also not being presented as well in the store or highlighted as well, a double hit to that previous strong point.

Then there was Canada...
Agreed.

Target also seems to no longer be focused on their core large stores.

Their planned store development list (below) shows that every planned new store is between 17,000 square feet and 50,000 square feet (except for one store in Spring, Texas). They're essentially opening up trendy, slightly larger versions of Dollar Generals or Family Dollar stores.

https://corporate.target.com/about/shop ... e-openings
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by veteran+ »

J-Man wrote:
Wow!

The SuperTarget in Indio was across the street from the closed Fresh & Easy!

So now the only store left in the area is the Winco that is next door to the soon to close SuperTarget.

I do not remember but there may be a Stater Brothers within a mile or two.
The Kmart in Indio closed down late last year as well. There are still a (non-Super)Target and a Walmart Supercenter in La Quinta, just over the border from Indio.
That's awful!

Shame, because that SuperTarget was new and beautiful. The presentation, quality and service were impressive! I don't know if they maintained that.

Very interesting how the Coachella Valley continues to fall behind the rest of California's "comeback"!

Every time I visit Palm Springs, I notice something else being closed. Even that new mall in downtown is such a joke.
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by wnetmacman »

arizonaguy wrote:
storewanderer wrote:I have always felt Target was a bit of a joke. For all the bad reputations that Wal Mart has regarding many things (labor, putting small businesses out of business, etc.), Target operates in the same manner. What is even more interesting is typically Wal Mart's hourly employee wages are actually higher than Target, Wal Mart has more management in its stores than Target (higher paid positions), and Target has the same old thing of hiring mostly part time help, and all of the other things that Wal Mart is routinely "accused of doing" that are such bad things and make them an evil company.

With that said, Target throughout the 90's and into the early 00's seemed to be trend connected and have the right items at the right prices at the right time. They located stores in the right neighborhoods (never tried to serve any of the rough neighborhoods Wal Mart goes into, and in some cases has failed in) to capture this customer and it seems things worked out well for them for quite a while.

I believe Target lost its way when they started the "P Fresh" remodel program. The new store layouts did not make sense, the product mix stopped making sense, and the store remodels often did not flow well or present what used to be Target's stronger categories as well as previously. It seems like the trend right merchandise was in less demand as the economy faltered, and it was also not being presented as well in the store or highlighted as well, a double hit to that previous strong point.

Then there was Canada...
Agreed.

Target also seems to no longer be focused on their core large stores.

Their planned store development list (below) shows that every planned new store is between 17,000 square feet and 50,000 square feet (except for one store in Spring, Texas). They're essentially opening up trendy, slightly larger versions of Dollar Generals or Family Dollar stores.

https://corporate.target.com/about/shop ... e-openings
The only part I don't agree with here is that Target has *never* carried everything. They always promoted themselves as 'cheap chic' from the beginning, owing to their full department store roots.

I have a long list of things I can't get there:
  • Men's clothing is a joke unless you're average to small sized.
    Automotive is one aisle, though I know they had auto repair at one point.
    Electronics is hit or miss, with an emphasis on what's cool now.
    Grocery; well, I like to think of it as convenience store meets Whole Foods lite. A little of the basic lines, plus a smattering of organic/healthy stuff. No full line of anything.
Walmart, and even the Super Kmart Centers were far closer to being full line than Target. And P-Fresh doesn't carry enough to make a dent; it reminds me of what Big Kmart was intended to be.

Target to me has also been the Macy's of discount retailing, taking over many similar retailers. Ayr-Way (LS Ayres), Richway (Rich's), Gold Circle (Federated), Memco and several others, but each contributed nothing to the table. None of their ideas were implemented into Target. They haven't taken over anyone lately owing to there being nobody left to take over.

I believe Target may be having internal issues, but is somehow still making money in the United States. Canada proved that they can't port it over outside the US.
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by pseudo3d »

wnetmacman wrote:
arizonaguy wrote:
storewanderer wrote:I have always felt Target was a bit of a joke. For all the bad reputations that Wal Mart has regarding many things (labor, putting small businesses out of business, etc.), Target operates in the same manner. What is even more interesting is typically Wal Mart's hourly employee wages are actually higher than Target, Wal Mart has more management in its stores than Target (higher paid positions), and Target has the same old thing of hiring mostly part time help, and all of the other things that Wal Mart is routinely "accused of doing" that are such bad things and make them an evil company.

With that said, Target throughout the 90's and into the early 00's seemed to be trend connected and have the right items at the right prices at the right time. They located stores in the right neighborhoods (never tried to serve any of the rough neighborhoods Wal Mart goes into, and in some cases has failed in) to capture this customer and it seems things worked out well for them for quite a while.

I believe Target lost its way when they started the "P Fresh" remodel program. The new store layouts did not make sense, the product mix stopped making sense, and the store remodels often did not flow well or present what used to be Target's stronger categories as well as previously. It seems like the trend right merchandise was in less demand as the economy faltered, and it was also not being presented as well in the store or highlighted as well, a double hit to that previous strong point.

Then there was Canada...
Agreed.

Target also seems to no longer be focused on their core large stores.

Their planned store development list (below) shows that every planned new store is between 17,000 square feet and 50,000 square feet (except for one store in Spring, Texas). They're essentially opening up trendy, slightly larger versions of Dollar Generals or Family Dollar stores.

https://corporate.target.com/about/shop ... e-openings
The only part I don't agree with here is that Target has *never* carried everything. They always promoted themselves as 'cheap chic' from the beginning, owing to their full department store roots.

I have a long list of things I can't get there:
  • Men's clothing is a joke unless you're average to small sized.
    Automotive is one aisle, though I know they had auto repair at one point.
    Electronics is hit or miss, with an emphasis on what's cool now.
    Grocery; well, I like to think of it as convenience store meets Whole Foods lite. A little of the basic lines, plus a smattering of organic/healthy stuff. No full line of anything.
Walmart, and even the Super Kmart Centers were far closer to being full line than Target. And P-Fresh doesn't carry enough to make a dent; it reminds me of what Big Kmart was intended to be.

Target to me has also been the Macy's of discount retailing, taking over many similar retailers. Ayr-Way (LS Ayres), Richway (Rich's), Gold Circle (Federated), Memco and several others, but each contributed nothing to the table. None of their ideas were implemented into Target. They haven't taken over anyone lately owing to there being nobody left to take over.

I believe Target may be having internal issues, but is somehow still making money in the United States. Canada proved that they can't port it over outside the US.
Target was, if I've read correctly, fairly close to full-line, they were more "upscale" than Wal-Mart and Kmart, which were real dumps at the time. Target had auto centers and a lot of their stores had garden centers (this was most popular in Florida and was broomed in the last five years or so), but I don't know what other lines they once carried and do no longer. As for taking over retailers, though, Target mostly took over for the real estate. They closed the stores for months to remodel to the Target name, it's not like they slapped the Target name on it and cleared out the merchandise. They didn't keep the décor and definitely not the employees (compare and contrast to the Macy's acquisition and various times grocery stores changed hands).

Super Kmart was great, they kept a real full grocery line (with perishable departments) with a full general merchandise store, all with an attractive layout (they had nice tile and a real ceiling unlike the warehouses Wal-Mart was building). Too bad it was never expanded properly and ultimately killed off, though.
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by wnetmacman »

pseudo3d wrote:Target was, if I've read correctly, fairly close to full-line, they were more "upscale" than Wal-Mart and Kmart, which were real dumps at the time.
Kmart stores were, until very recently, fairly well done, with a huge mix of both cheap stuff and name brands, except in clothing; Kmart was long known in most circles as the Polyester Palace. The stores were well built and attractive, though they were not like the luxurious department stores. They were wide open. Walmart's earlier stores were not as nice as they are (intended to be) now. They were, in some cases, put together with bailing wire and duct tape, which was the case for many early discounters.

You have to keep in mind that at the advent of all three of these, Kresge was the only nationally known name, and Kmart was just starting. Dayton's didn't take Target out of MN for some time, and Walmart only hit 8 stores by 1968. Target's aim was with almost everyone else, as neither of the other two were open yet, or only barely so.
pseudo3d wrote:Target had auto centers and a lot of their stores had garden centers (this was most popular in Florida and was broomed in the last five years or so), but I don't know what other lines they once carried and do no longer.
As with many things Target tried, both Auto Centers and Garden were hit and miss. Garden Centers were mainly (and inexplicably) in inner city stores where folks really didn't do as much gardening. The more rural stores rarely, if ever had them. Auto Centers were a thing of the past by the middle of the 80's; even Kmart was starting to get rid of them by then.

pseudo3d wrote:As for taking over retailers, though, Target mostly took over for the real estate. They closed the stores for months to remodel to the Target name, it's not like they slapped the Target name on it and cleared out the merchandise. They didn't keep the décor and definitely not the employees (compare and contrast to the Macy's acquisition and various times grocery stores changed hands).
This is 100% correct. No element of any store was kept. Red paint was the order of any acquisition. Target and Walmart are both culprits in this area; they want their stores to be their stores. I know of a Neighborhood Market store in Baton Rouge that was an old Delchamps. Walmart gutted the interior and made it a true NM.
pseudo3d wrote:Super Kmart was great, they kept a real full grocery line (with perishable departments) with a full general merchandise store, all with an attractive layout (they had nice tile and a real ceiling unlike the warehouses Wal-Mart was building). Too bad it was never expanded properly and ultimately killed off, though.
Ceilings are overrated and expensive. Expensive buildings do not keep costs (and therefore prices) down. Super K could have succeeded had the events leading up to January 22, 2002 not taken place, but that's for another thread.
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by mjhale »

arizonaguy wrote: Agreed.

Target also seems to no longer be focused on their core large stores.

Their planned store development list (below) shows that every planned new store is between 17,000 square feet and 50,000 square feet (except for one store in Spring, Texas). They're essentially opening up trendy, slightly larger versions of Dollar Generals or Family Dollar stores.

https://corporate.target.com/about/shop ... e-openings
If you look at the descriptions of the stores Target has opened recently or have in the pipeline they, to me, are all glorified upscale convenience stores. "Grab and Go", "select groceries", etc. Plus the word "curated" is used a lot when referring to clothing selections. It seems that these days using the word curated infers higher end whether it is or not. I'm sure these stores will do well. Target is still the anti Wal-Mart to many people. Plus Target does seem to be catering the stores to the neighborhoods they will be in. With that said will Target's increasing reliance on what are essentially specialty versions of standard Target stores for growth take the focus away from the standard Target store that most people shop in. Further will the Target stores on campuses develop lifelong Target shoppers?

I was recently in the Target store closest to me because the CVS in there had a prescription that I needed (my prescription plan is now with CVS/Caremark). When I walked in the store seemed very sterile with no energy. As I walked back to where the pharmacy is located I could find no compelling reason to shop there. The Wal-Mart in the same shopping strip was converted to a Supercenter in 2011 and is constantly packed. This is in an area where average salaries are about $90,000/year. What is interesting is that Wal-Mart attracts a very diverse clientele. I've seen everything from dirt poor up to very affluent shopping in there. Target seems to have the same anti Wal-Mart hipster and fashion oriented people who want to say that they bought it at Tarzay.

If Target is going to concentrate on these small stores moving forward they can't loose focus on their standard stores which are likely still their bread and butter. As much as I'd like to see Wal-Mart get into more very urban areas I think Wal-Mart has been smart to dump the Wal-Mart Express mess and stick with stores that have a similar product mix no matter what the size of the store. Near me we have multiple Wal-Mart stores from 80,000 sq foot Supercenters at the bottom of multi-use buildings to mid-szie 150,00 sq foot Supercenters to the mack daddy 220,000 sq foot Supercenter. Even though the stores vary in size the core product selection is consistent between stores. Certainly the larger stores have more depth in selection. But what you expect to be there in a Wal-Mart is present in all of the stores. What my concern for these smaller Target stores is that the customer goes into one expecting to buy something they expect to get at Target but it isn't there because it doesn't fit the "curation" of that location. Where does the customer go? Likely somewhere else. That doesn't bode well for Target keeping and expanding their sales.
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by pseudo3d »

wnetmacman wrote:
pseudo3d wrote:Target was, if I've read correctly, fairly close to full-line, they were more "upscale" than Wal-Mart and Kmart, which were real dumps at the time.
Kmart stores were, until very recently, fairly well done, with a huge mix of both cheap stuff and name brands, except in clothing; Kmart was long known in most circles as the Polyester Palace. The stores were well built and attractive, though they were not like the luxurious department stores. They were wide open. Walmart's earlier stores were not as nice as they are (intended to be) now. They were, in some cases, put together with bailing wire and duct tape, which was the case for many early discounters.
Old Kmarts weren't much to look at, even back in the 1970s and 1980s.
pseudo3d wrote:Target had auto centers and a lot of their stores had garden centers (this was most popular in Florida and was broomed in the last five years or so), but I don't know what other lines they once carried and do no longer.
As with many things Target tried, both Auto Centers and Garden were hit and miss. Garden Centers were mainly (and inexplicably) in inner city stores where folks really didn't do as much gardening. The more rural stores rarely, if ever had them. Auto Centers were a thing of the past by the middle of the 80's; even Kmart was starting to get rid of them by then.
For the department stores, that was true. But discount stores didn't have the same thing. Target got rid of them fairly early on, but Kmart kept them even on newer stores (they outsourced in the mid-1990s), and Walmart still had them. Even the Auchan hypermarket in Houston (built in 1988) had one. And of course, by the 1980s, the discount store scene had been dramatically cut down to only Target, Wal-Mart, and Kmart, as well as the few stragglers in the Northeast (Ames, Hills, Caldor, Bradlees, Jamesway)--all of which would meet their demise soon after.

Likewise for the garden centers, Target's urban focus was partly because they didn't do more rural areas like Wal-Mart and Kmart did. I do recall that when Target closed the garden centers for the last time, the vast majority of them were in Florida.
pseudo3d wrote:As for taking over retailers, though, Target mostly took over for the real estate. They closed the stores for months to remodel to the Target name, it's not like they slapped the Target name on it and cleared out the merchandise. They didn't keep the décor and definitely not the employees (compare and contrast to the Macy's acquisition and various times grocery stores changed hands).
This is 100% correct. No element of any store was kept. Red paint was the order of any acquisition. Target and Walmart are both culprits in this area; they want their stores to be their stores. I know of a Neighborhood Market store in Baton Rouge that was an old Delchamps. Walmart gutted the interior and made it a true NM.
Walmart tends to do that to their grocery stores, I know what they did to former Albertsons in Texas. But both them and Target often keep the facades (the later FedMart stores made for some interesting Target stores). Later on that wasn't the case, Target tended to completely rebuild Kmart stores it acquired after 2002 and 2003 (even if they were in good condition, which admittedly many were not).
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by wnetmacman »

pseudo3d wrote:Old Kmarts weren't much to look at, even back in the 1970s and 1980s.
Compared to the other guys out there at the time, Kmart was a veritable palace; clean and organized.
pseudo3d wrote:For the department stores, that was true. But discount stores didn't have the same thing. Target got rid of them fairly early on, but Kmart kept them even on newer stores (they outsourced in the mid-1990s), and Walmart still had them. Even the Auchan hypermarket in Houston (built in 1988) had one. And of course, by the 1980s, the discount store scene had been dramatically cut down to only Target, Wal-Mart, and Kmart, as well as the few stragglers in the Northeast (Ames, Hills, Caldor, Bradlees, Jamesway)--all of which would meet their demise soon after.

Likewise for the garden centers, Target's urban focus was partly because they didn't do more rural areas like Wal-Mart and Kmart did. I do recall that when Target closed the garden centers for the last time, the vast majority of them were in Florida.
But wouldn't you think their focus should have been their less urban areas? Walmart now puts them in every store that carries GM. Kmart had them in every newly built store after 1993 (NOT counting acquired stores like Venture that didn't have them).
pseudo3d wrote:Later on that wasn't the case, Target tended to completely rebuild Kmart stores it acquired after 2002 and 2003 (even if they were in good condition, which admittedly many were not).
Every Target that I know of in a former Kmart was a simple remodel, not a rebuild. A case in point is a store on Belt Line Road in Addison, TX. That store not only retained the Kmart footprint, it also retained the vast majority of the Kmart facade and vestibule:
addisonkmart.jpg
The three red lines inlaid into the stucco are the dead giveaway, as is the rounded portico.
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Re: Target to close 11 stores before year end

Post by Super S »

wnetmacman wrote:
pseudo3d wrote:Old Kmarts weren't much to look at, even back in the 1970s and 1980s.
Compared to the other guys out there at the time, Kmart was a veritable palace; clean and organized.
pseudo3d wrote:For the department stores, that was true. But discount stores didn't have the same thing. Target got rid of them fairly early on, but Kmart kept them even on newer stores (they outsourced in the mid-1990s), and Walmart still had them. Even the Auchan hypermarket in Houston (built in 1988) had one. And of course, by the 1980s, the discount store scene had been dramatically cut down to only Target, Wal-Mart, and Kmart, as well as the few stragglers in the Northeast (Ames, Hills, Caldor, Bradlees, Jamesway)--all of which would meet their demise soon after.

Likewise for the garden centers, Target's urban focus was partly because they didn't do more rural areas like Wal-Mart and Kmart did. I do recall that when Target closed the garden centers for the last time, the vast majority of them were in Florida.
But wouldn't you think their focus should have been their less urban areas? Walmart now puts them in every store that carries GM. Kmart had them in every newly built store after 1993 (NOT counting acquired stores like Venture that didn't have them).
pseudo3d wrote:Later on that wasn't the case, Target tended to completely rebuild Kmart stores it acquired after 2002 and 2003 (even if they were in good condition, which admittedly many were not).
Every Target that I know of in a former Kmart was a simple remodel, not a rebuild. A case in point is a store on Belt Line Road in Addison, TX. That store not only retained the Kmart footprint, it also retained the vast majority of the Kmart facade and vestibule:
addisonkmart.jpg

The three red lines inlaid into the stucco are the dead giveaway, as is the rounded portico.
Some of the newer (1990s and up) Kmarts (of which that appears to be) have some features that lend themselves well to a Target conversion with only minor changes. The typical 1960s-1970s Kmarts, not so much.

The only Target conversions I have been to were former Montgomery Ward locations. These were completely redone on the front.
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