Target to close 11 stores before year end

[veteran+]

Funny about Kmart! They had more knowledge and expertise in food retailing than Target and Walmart combined and really dropped the ball. Awful what poor and incompetent leadership can do to a company with such a historical legacy (formerly S.S. Kresge) << spelling?

Kmart never marketed food on their own. During the Kmart Foods days, they relied on other operators (Allied, Kroger, Wyatt and others) to run those stores. In reality that they didn't want grocery knowledge. The Super K days saw them paired with a very weak Bruno's in the south and others wherever they splattered down. Later, they brought Fleming down with their own failure. I would say they were all (Kmart, Walmart and Target) on equal ground with the food knowledge. We are, after all, talking about one of the only companies who still fully leases its shoe department; they just don't want to do certain things.

I don't think the problem was "should have never been like Super Kmart or Super Walmart", it's that they didn't try that hard.

It wasn't about what they were trying to be like. The perception was that they should have had the depth and value of Walmart, and when folks shopped there it wasn't anywhere close. Walmart had a huge selection compared to anyone else, and when Target came in *much later* with the Super Target stores, they just didn't have much of anything. Customers expected a huge selection of cheap chic food, but Target couldn't deliver. I believe they also had distribution and supplier issues; they used Supervalu for a while IIRC. Target and Walmart are self-distributing now.

Yes, I am fully aware of the food partners that Kmart used around the country in several different ways for Kmart Foods, et al. I will disagree with you regarding their knowledge of food in comparison to Walmart and eventually Target. If by osmosis and time alone, their knowledge of food was superior to Walmart and especially Target.

I will also disagree with the differences with Target and Walmart. Target super store product selection was not intended to match Walmart super store product selection. Walmart's selection is pretty hard core low class and Target's is intended to be above that (successful or not). I think what is important to identify is a company's Intent (inclusive of missteps) and the success or failure or reinvention of that intent.

[wnetmacman]

Yes, I am fully aware of the food partners that Kmart used around the country in several different ways for Kmart Foods, et al. I will disagree with you regarding their knowledge of food in comparison to Walmart and eventually Target. If by osmosis and time alone, their knowledge of food was superior to Walmart and especially Target.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Kmart never learned anything by watching the other companies. I believe that is painfully obvious, except during the Antonini days where they were doing everything like Walmart just to catch up.

I will also disagree with the differences with Target and Walmart. Target super store product selection was not intended to match Walmart super store product selection. Walmart's selection is pretty hard core low class and Target's is intended to be above that (successful or not). I think what is important to identify is a company's Intent (inclusive of missteps) and the success or failure or reinvention of that intent.

I never said it wasn't Target's intention. It was a public perception. Folks expected them to be more like Walmart. Walmart isn't really hardcore low class; they sell the same stuff the other supermarkets do. It may not always be the highest quality, but that's how they keep costs down. Target never has had the selection of any other store, including upscale supermarkets. That's why it doesn't work as well. For lack of a better way to put it, you just can't do all your shopping there.

[veteran+]

Yes, I am fully aware of the food partners that Kmart used around the country in several different ways for Kmart Foods, et al. I will disagree with you regarding their knowledge of food in comparison to Walmart and eventually Target. If by osmosis and time alone, their knowledge of food was superior to Walmart and especially Target.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Kmart never learned anything by watching the other companies. I believe that is painfully obvious, except during the Antonini days where they were doing everything like Walmart just to catch up.

I will also disagree with the differences with Target and Walmart. Target super store product selection was not intended to match Walmart super store product selection. Walmart's selection is pretty hard core low class and Target's is intended to be above that (successful or not). I think what is important to identify is a company's Intent (inclusive of missteps) and the success or failure or reinvention of that intent.

I never said it wasn't Target's intention. It was a public perception. Folks expected them to be more like Walmart. Walmart isn't really hardcore low class; they sell the same stuff the other supermarkets do. It may not always be the highest quality, but that's how they keep costs down. Target never has had the selection of any other store, including upscale supermarkets. That's why it doesn't work as well. For lack of a better way to put it, you just can't do all your shopping there.

We will disagree

How Kmart used that knowledge of food was clearly misused. And they did have close relationships with their partners in food back then.

Walmart is low class and that is their strength in both food and general merchandise. They get away with subpar in everything including customer service, out of stocks, low quality food and general merchandise, supercilious behavior with employees worldwide, etc.

I never said Target had high class food. Folks never expected Target to be like Walmart. "Things" were lost with intent, perception, adaptation to a plethora of changes in the socioeconomic landscape and more by Target. All these changes benefited Walmart's approach.

[pseudo3d]

Kmart did a lot of things wrong, no question. Their food program on the other hand was a victim of that rather than a cause. Their food program was better run and operated than any other superstore at the time. Articles describe them doing things with bakery and deli, and even in the Conaway era they had done at least one store with faux hardwood flooring in produce before everyone else was doing that sort of thing. Their Pantry store offered a comparatively deep selection when Wal-Mart and Target had little more than chips, soda, and candy (this also made good industry press). Where Kmart had failed was that they were building nice superstores (and they were more expensive to build than Wal-Mart's) when they were simultaneously tugging a fleet of horrible, out of date ones (even in the 1990s), not having the financial resources to expand it (partially due to decisions made decades earlier), never building enough even they could, and when they did, having them in odd, scattered locations in small to medium markets. Distribution was another problem...they didn't have the buying power Wal-Mart had, and their exclusive distribution deal with Fleming ultimately killed both. (Maybe if they had bought Fleming instead of signing a deal with it, things might've turned out differently)

Target's problem was also scattered markets at least at first, and they never really did anything with it. Like Kmart they had a lot of nice stores and features but they did little to improve the concept. Even as of 1996, an article published in Discount Store News was titled "SuperTarget all dressed up, but no plans to go far". They didn't try to compete or even tweak their design to be more like Wal-Mart Supercenter (like being open 24 hours or even late) and weren't as well-run or economical as real supermarkets. They added a private label like Kmart eventually did, but they stumbled with it and only opened a handful of smaller stores.

In a way, both companies had very similar mistakes and attitudes but it was Target that emerged the victor (well, at least in terms of a viable company) because they actually had a base of good regular discount stores to work off, unlike Kmart's deteriorating stores.

[wnetmacman]

Kmart did a lot of things wrong, no question. Their food program on the other hand was a victim of that rather than a cause. Their food program was better run and operated than any other superstore at the time. Articles describe them doing things with bakery and deli, and even in the Conaway era they had done at least one store with faux hardwood flooring in produce before everyone else was doing that sort of thing. Their Pantry store offered a comparatively deep selection when Wal-Mart and Target had little more than chips, soda, and candy (this also made good industry press). Where Kmart had failed was that they were building nice superstores (and they were more expensive to build than Wal-Mart's) when they were simultaneously tugging a fleet of horrible, out of date ones (even in the 1990s), not having the financial resources to expand it (partially due to decisions made decades earlier), never building enough even they could, and when they did, having them in odd, scattered locations in small to medium markets. Distribution was another problem...they didn't have the buying power Wal-Mart had, and their exclusive distribution deal with Fleming ultimately killed both. (Maybe if they had bought Fleming instead of signing a deal with it, things might've turned out differently)

All true. One other piece of information here: timeline:

First Supercenter:
Walmart: 1988 (1987 counting Hypermart USA)
Kmart: 1991 (1989 if you count American Fare)
Target: 1995

Intent on it carrying the business:
Walmart: Even back to Sam's days, he considered it the future of Wal-Mart
Kmart: No. Discount stores were the company
Target: No. A high impact, low cost side project. (Per Gregg Steinhafel in an interview in 1996) We now know that P-Fresh is the future of Target.

Number ultimately built:
Walmart: 3000+ (and counting) of the 4500 US locations
Kmart: not more than 150 (with less than 10 remaining) out of 900 remaining US locations
Target: 240 out of 1500 US locations.

The only company truly committed full time to the concept has always been Walmart. Target is committed to P-Fresh. Kmart....well....

Target's problem was also scattered markets at least at first, and they never really did anything with it. Like Kmart they had a lot of nice stores and features but they did little to improve the concept. Even as of 1996, an article published in Discount Store News was titled "SuperTarget all dressed up, but no plans to go far". They didn't try to compete or even tweak their design to be more like Wal-Mart Supercenter (like being open 24 hours or even late) and weren't as well-run or economical as real supermarkets. They added a private label like Kmart eventually did, but they stumbled with it and only opened a handful of smaller stores.

In a way, both companies had very similar mistakes and attitudes but it was Target that emerged the victor (well, at least in terms of a viable company) because they actually had a base of good regular discount stores to work off, unlike Kmart's deteriorating stores.

Correct. The one thing Target did was find a better supplier. Most are supplied in conjunction with SuperValu via a Target-exclusive DC, except in spots where they don't distribute (in the Northeast, they use C&S). They had a private label (and still have it). No Super Target opened for 24 hours. Super Kmart did, but even now, Walmart doesn't keep all the stores open 24/7.

[veteran+]

There were Kmart and Kmart Foods in Florida in 1968 that were attached with and without interior entry points. These stores were 100,000 sq ft and perhaps larger. Those locations were the Super Centers of the time. Of course the food part was operated by Allied at the time and was a union shop.

I managed a Pantry Pride/J.M. Fields (125,000 sq ft with interior access, open 24 hours) very close to one of these Kmart locations. In addition there was a Grand Union/Grand Way very close by, that was 100,000 sq ft.

I often spoke to these managers and noted that Kmart had close relationships with their food partners (according to what I was told). This of course was different from Pantry Pride owning J.M. Fields and Grand Union owning Grand Way.

[pseudo3d]

The only company truly committed full time to the concept has always been Walmart. Target is committed to P-Fresh. Kmart....well....

Kmart currently has something like Kmart Fresh going on more recently but the phrase "Too little, too late" comes to mind.

As for Walmart, they realized that food was their future and started to blur the lines between the Supercenter and the regular stores by no longer branding stores as Supercenter (internally it still exists). Walmart quit having real meat departments years ago but some Walmarts still do have full deli departments (including slicing lunch meats and cheeses to order).

There were Kmart and Kmart Foods in Florida in 1968 that were attached with and without interior entry points. These stores were 100,000 sq ft and perhaps larger. Those locations were the Super Centers of the time. Of course the food part was operated by Allied at the time and was a union shop.

I managed a Pantry Pride/J.M. Fields (125,000 sq ft with interior access, open 24 hours) very close to one of these Kmart locations. In addition there was a Grand Union/Grand Way very close by, that was 100,000 sq ft.

I often spoke to these managers and noted that Kmart had close relationships with their food partners (according to what I was told). This of course was different from Pantry Pride owning J.M. Fields and Grand Union owning Grand Way.

Kmart Foods was already disintegrating by the early 1970s and if I recall they all used different operators (though Allied Foods was a big one). The Texas stores were operated by Lewis & Coker, an outfit out of Houston that operated adjacent food stores from College Station to Galveston. I don't think that any grocery knowledge actually went with Kmart to help with Super Kmart, though in the late 1980s, they did reopen an old adjacent grocery store space to make a prototype Super Kmart (that didn't last, though it did provide them with a lot of insight). Due to the passage of time, pretty much all of these operators have wound up dead or acquired long ago.

[veteran+]

The only company truly committed full time to the concept has always been Walmart. Target is committed to P-Fresh. Kmart....well....

Kmart currently has something like Kmart Fresh going on more recently but the phrase "Too little, too late" comes to mind.

As for Walmart, they realized that food was their future and started to blur the lines between the Supercenter and the regular stores by no longer branding stores as Supercenter (internally it still exists). Walmart quit having real meat departments years ago but some Walmarts still do have full deli departments (including slicing lunch meats and cheeses to order).

There were Kmart and Kmart Foods in Florida in 1968 that were attached with and without interior entry points. These stores were 100,000 sq ft and perhaps larger. Those locations were the Super Centers of the time. Of course the food part was operated by Allied at the time and was a union shop.

I managed a Pantry Pride/J.M. Fields (125,000 sq ft with interior access, open 24 hours) very close to one of these Kmart locations. In addition there was a Grand Union/Grand Way very close by, that was 100,000 sq ft.

I often spoke to these managers and noted that Kmart had close relationships with their food partners (according to what I was told). This of course was different from Pantry Pride owning J.M. Fields and Grand Union owning Grand Way.

Kmart Foods was already disintegrating by the early 1970s and if I recall they all used different operators (though Allied Foods was a big one). The Texas stores were operated by Lewis & Coker, an outfit out of Houston that operated adjacent food stores from College Station to Galveston. I don't think that any grocery knowledge actually went with Kmart to help with Super Kmart, though in the late 1980s, they did reopen an old adjacent grocery store space to make a prototype Super Kmart (that didn't last, though it did provide them with a lot of insight). Due to the passage of time, pretty much all of these operators have wound up dead or acquired long ago.

Yes, there were several different food partners throughout the country for Kmart Foods.

I still believe that Kmart had some residual knowledge of food operations ahead of Walmart and for sure, Target. How much knowledge and what they did with that knowledge of course was to no avail.

[pseudo3d]

The only company truly committed full time to the concept has always been Walmart. Target is committed to P-Fresh. Kmart....well....

Kmart currently has something like Kmart Fresh going on more recently but the phrase "Too little, too late" comes to mind.

As for Walmart, they realized that food was their future and started to blur the lines between the Supercenter and the regular stores by no longer branding stores as Supercenter (internally it still exists). Walmart quit having real meat departments years ago but some Walmarts still do have full deli departments (including slicing lunch meats and cheeses to order).

There were Kmart and Kmart Foods in Florida in 1968 that were attached with and without interior entry points. These stores were 100,000 sq ft and perhaps larger. Those locations were the Super Centers of the time. Of course the food part was operated by Allied at the time and was a union shop.

I managed a Pantry Pride/J.M. Fields (125,000 sq ft with interior access, open 24 hours) very close to one of these Kmart locations. In addition there was a Grand Union/Grand Way very close by, that was 100,000 sq ft.

I often spoke to these managers and noted that Kmart had close relationships with their food partners (according to what I was told). This of course was different from Pantry Pride owning J.M. Fields and Grand Union owning Grand Way.

Kmart Foods was already disintegrating by the early 1970s and if I recall they all used different operators (though Allied Foods was a big one). The Texas stores were operated by Lewis & Coker, an outfit out of Houston that operated adjacent food stores from College Station to Galveston. I don't think that any grocery knowledge actually went with Kmart to help with Super Kmart, though in the late 1980s, they did reopen an old adjacent grocery store space to make a prototype Super Kmart (that didn't last, though it did provide them with a lot of insight). Due to the passage of time, pretty much all of these operators have wound up dead or acquired long ago.

Yes, there were several different food partners throughout the country for Kmart Foods.

I still believe that Kmart had some residual knowledge of food operations ahead of Walmart and for sure, Target. How much knowledge and what they did with that knowledge of course was to no avail.

Target also partnered with a few food companies for its adjacent grocery stores, two that I know of (or have heard of) included Weingarten in Houston (later sold to Grand Union after them and Target split ways, sold off stores in the mid-1980s to predominantly Safeway but others too) and Applebaum's (from what I've read, it looks like Rainbow Foods may have been the successor company). Walmart had partnered with Cullum Companies for its first Hypermart USA and from what I've read learned enough about them to do it themselves when they opened stores in the Kansas City area a year or so later. (Cullum Cos. operated Tom Thumb in Dallas, and was a well-respected and well-run outlet, shortly before being acquired by Randalls, setting off a chain reaction that would ultimately have them deteriorate under Safeway control, but that's another story).

[mbz321]

Here's another article from today showing that Target is not quite on Target. http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/17/targets- ... y-fix.html

-Again they point out that people aren't coming in for groceries (or much else either)

-A note about the Pharmacy switchover (which I think was a huge mistake...a lot of people used Target's pharmacy because they weren't a CVS. Now it is just a confusing mess and doesn't really add anything to Target's bottom line. Why would I schlep through Target to go to CVS when I can just go through the Drive-Thru CVS (or Walgreens or whoever) across the street?

-Some remarks about the 'boycott' over transgender bathrooms. A lot of the commenters are indicating it is still a 'huge' thing ,but I think just people gave up shopping at Target due to noncompetitive prices (especially in Apparel...some of their clothing is more expensive than I can get at JCPenney or a place that specializes in clothing. They don't seem to know if they are a discount store or a boutique anymore, and poor selection (part of the cause was adding P-Fresh to every store that for some reason Target thought they could rely on for sales).

(The only positive thing I can say about Target is now they have self-checkouts in more stores so I don't have to wait in the 2-3 regular lines that they seem to have open at any given time and can buy maybe the one or two items I actually found on my list in a hurry).