Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by wnetmacman »

pseudo3d wrote:Cheap chic is not Target's DNA and arguably I think this has hurt the chain. Target's strength, traditionally, was being a more upscale discounter at a time when everyone else (Kmart, Wal-Mart, Ames, Zayre) was pretty dowdy. The only ones to really come close to Target at the time were Woolco and Venture, both of which eventually went bankrupt. Target had to switch, though, when Wal-Mart and Kmart (the only ones really left by the late 1990s) started to improve their stores.
Woolco did not go bankrupt. Woolworth liquidated the division. For Woolco to be bankrupt, Woolworth would have to have done so as well, which never happened. They *did* close all stores, but closing all stores and filing for bankruptcy are two distinctly different things.

Venture was a direct copy of Target, down to policies and store layouts, because its founder, John Geisse, was directly involved with the founding of Target. Venture never built up enough in one place to sustain itself, and indeed did go bankrupt.

Target always ran nicer, cleaner stores than Kmart and Walmart. Indeed, Walmart stepped things up a bit when Target began to be a threat, but Kmart only stepped things up because of Walmart. Target is now stepping things up because they cannot continue to grow unless something changes.
pseudo3d wrote:Target has become pretty useless for a lot of things, a lot of merchandise I've wanted to buy and was there looked like it had already been opened and returned, and it's also taken the trend of having less people on the floor, making it just as useless as Walmart. Groceries are pretty useless at the way they still keep relatively small footprints, have destroyed depth, and the grocery departments that are there just aren't very good. They lack the full service departments that real grocery stores have, and don't even have fresh produce. If they really cared about grocery, they would at least make larger stores--they have the money to do so and have replaced smaller locations before. But they really don't. Grocery at least seems to be better stocked than Walmart, generally, but probably because their volume is so much less.
Indeed, Target only sells you what they think you should have, and it's all decidedly upscale from Walmart. Walmart is not as useless as Target, because for approximately every 4 Walmart stores, there are 1-1/2 Target stores. In Rural areas, that number drops dramatically. Up until the year 2000, Louisiana had 2 Target stores. TWO. There were at that time 80 Walmart stores. Market penetration makes things go more smoothly, and makes a company less useless.

To me, Target always attacked the grocery market half-heartedly, only doing so to show they wanted to compete with Walmart and then Kmart's Supercenters. The Deli and Bakery were items that were brought in and reheated or prepared. Dry grocery was about half of what Walmart carried. It just wasn't worth it.

Any improvement they could make would be better, but I suspect they'll go the opposite way.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by pseudo3d »

wnetmacman wrote:
pseudo3d wrote:Cheap chic is not Target's DNA and arguably I think this has hurt the chain. Target's strength, traditionally, was being a more upscale discounter at a time when everyone else (Kmart, Wal-Mart, Ames, Zayre) was pretty dowdy. The only ones to really come close to Target at the time were Woolco and Venture, both of which eventually went bankrupt. Target had to switch, though, when Wal-Mart and Kmart (the only ones really left by the late 1990s) started to improve their stores.
Woolco did not go bankrupt. Woolworth liquidated the division. For Woolco to be bankrupt, Woolworth would have to have done so as well, which never happened. They *did* close all stores, but closing all stores and filing for bankruptcy are two distinctly different things.

Venture was a direct copy of Target, down to policies and store layouts, because its founder, John Geisse, was directly involved with the founding of Target. Venture never built up enough in one place to sustain itself, and indeed did go bankrupt.

Target always ran nicer, cleaner stores than Kmart and Walmart. Indeed, Walmart stepped things up a bit when Target began to be a threat, but Kmart only stepped things up because of Walmart. Target is now stepping things up because they cannot continue to grow unless something changes.
pseudo3d wrote:Target has become pretty useless for a lot of things, a lot of merchandise I've wanted to buy and was there looked like it had already been opened and returned, and it's also taken the trend of having less people on the floor, making it just as useless as Walmart. Groceries are pretty useless at the way they still keep relatively small footprints, have destroyed depth, and the grocery departments that are there just aren't very good. They lack the full service departments that real grocery stores have, and don't even have fresh produce. If they really cared about grocery, they would at least make larger stores--they have the money to do so and have replaced smaller locations before. But they really don't. Grocery at least seems to be better stocked than Walmart, generally, but probably because their volume is so much less.
Indeed, Target only sells you what they think you should have, and it's all decidedly upscale from Walmart. Walmart is not as useless as Target, because for approximately every 4 Walmart stores, there are 1-1/2 Target stores. In Rural areas, that number drops dramatically. Up until the year 2000, Louisiana had 2 Target stores. TWO. There were at that time 80 Walmart stores. Market penetration makes things go more smoothly, and makes a company less useless.

To me, Target always attacked the grocery market half-heartedly, only doing so to show they wanted to compete with Walmart and then Kmart's Supercenters. The Deli and Bakery were items that were brought in and reheated or prepared. Dry grocery was about half of what Walmart carried. It just wasn't worth it.

Any improvement they could make would be better, but I suspect they'll go the opposite way.
Woolco was not in bad shape but Woolworth still decided to pull the plug on it. It couldn't even go mostly to one retailer (as Turn Style did). When a company closes all the stores in a chain (or a division), it means that either the stores did badly enough to close it or the company was in trouble. (Sometimes both) Venture's big problem was that it sunk money into Texas, jumping several markets (always a bad idea) and built stores in Dallas and Houston (not sure about San Antonio), miles apart. Arguably, Kmart's downfall helped stem from buying some of those stores (which lacked garden centers) as well.

Target's big problem is that it's become too narrow-minded for mass retailing, basically going for the "urban, hip, not-quite-well-moneyed millennial woman who votes Democrat every time" customer. There is a demand for "similar merchandise to Walmart Supercenter but not Walmart Supercenter" demographic that Target could've picked up on (or Sears/Kmart, had they actually put some thought into the company after Lampert) that's now being taken advantage of by supermarkets as they continue to expand their GM departments.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by wnetmacman »

pseudo3d wrote:Woolco was not in bad shape but Woolworth still decided to pull the plug on it. It couldn't even go mostly to one retailer (as Turn Style did). When a company closes all the stores in a chain (or a division), it means that either the stores did badly enough to close it or the company was in trouble. (Sometimes both)
Not even close. Woolco didn't go to just one company, because doing so would have created antitrust concerns. Indeed, Walmart and Kmart got the lion's share in the south, but in the northeast, Caldor, Zayre and Ames bought many stores also, because in a lot of cases, the Woolco stores were right across the street or next to a Kmart. (This is the Marion Isbell strategy. Isbell, the founder of Ramada Inns, noted that his strategy for locating Ramadas early on was to find where Kemmons Wilson placed a Holiday Inn, and build across the street.) Unlike Grant's, Kmart had largely finished their expansion in the US by then, and the Woolco stores they took just filled in some gaps.

By all accounts, Woolco was profitable, but not enough for the bean counters at Woolworth, who were used to higher margin items like the namesake stores carried. The two were always run as separate divisions, with 15 years separating the two's demises. Woolworth wasn't as willing to move on to the next thing in retail like Kresge and Walton were, and Woolco was a casualty.
pseudo3d wrote:Venture's big problem was that it sunk money into Texas, jumping several markets (always a bad idea) and built stores in Dallas and Houston (not sure about San Antonio), miles apart. Arguably, Kmart's downfall helped stem from buying some of those stores (which lacked garden centers) as well.
Kmart was sinking way before assuming the Venture leases. That was just one, very minor factor.
pseudo3d wrote:Target's big problem is that it's become too narrow-minded for mass retailing, basically going for the "urban, hip, not-quite-well-moneyed millennial woman who votes Democrat every time" customer. There is a demand for "similar merchandise to Walmart Supercenter but not Walmart Supercenter" demographic that Target could've picked up on (or Sears/Kmart, had they actually put some thought into the company after Lampert) that's now being taken advantage of by supermarkets as they continue to expand their GM departments.
Target has *always* been that narrow minded. This isn't new. While there have been opportunities for Target to jump on the Walmart ship, they have constantly avoided them. The problem now is that folks are starting to notice.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by pseudo3d »

wnetmacman wrote:
pseudo3d wrote:Target's big problem is that it's become too narrow-minded for mass retailing, basically going for the "urban, hip, not-quite-well-moneyed millennial woman who votes Democrat every time" customer. There is a demand for "similar merchandise to Walmart Supercenter but not Walmart Supercenter" demographic that Target could've picked up on (or Sears/Kmart, had they actually put some thought into the company after Lampert) that's now being taken advantage of by supermarkets as they continue to expand their GM departments.
Target has *always* been that narrow minded. This isn't new. While there have been opportunities for Target to jump on the Walmart ship, they have constantly avoided them. The problem now is that folks are starting to notice.
Despite the fact that they never competed tried to compete with Wal-Mart directly, they were fairly equal and weren't really "narrow minded" before the 2000s, it's been a fairly slow process, mostly accelerating in the last 10 years. These changes include the newer logo, eliminating Target Greatland, eliminating the garden center (which admittedly has never been universal and the vast majority of them were in California), and pushing food (even before P-Fresh). Basically the time "Tar-jay" started. Food is not a good attempt for Target and it's the wrong time to be getting into it (drug stores pushing it, Amazon and grocery delivery, deflation), one only needs to look at the changing face of the supermarket industry as weaker players are closing stores or getting snapped up, and P-Fresh could potentially end in disaster if they continue down this path.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by wnetmacman »

Let me repeat and requote myself here, and add Target red for emphasis:
wnetmacman wrote:Target has *always* been that narrow minded
I went in my first Target store in Houston in 1978. Even then, the store was decidedly more upscale than Kmart or Wal-Mart at the time. At that time, Lego wouldn't sell to Wal-Mart or Kmart, deeming them too dumpy and dowdy for their needs. Target had the full line on their shelves. For a 6 year old, when Lego availability was highly limited, it was a feast! Also, clothing wasn't limited to Kmart's Polyester Palace fare, they had real name brand stuff in there.
pseudo3d wrote:Basically the time "Tar-jay" started.
That started waaaaaaaaay before 2000. Trust me here.
pseudo3d wrote:eliminating the garden center (which admittedly has never been universal and the vast majority of them were in California)
The Garden Centers that Target did install were, just plain out, in the wrong places. They selected largely urban stores, where folks had no garden or yard to speak of, so they failed.
pseudo3d wrote:eliminating Target Greatland
The only real thing that separated Target Greatland was a second set of doors. Otherwise, it was essentially a larger Target.
pseudo3d wrote:Food is not a good attempt for Target and it's the wrong time to be getting into it (drug stores pushing it, Amazon and grocery delivery, deflation), one only needs to look at the changing face of the supermarket industry as weaker players are closing stores or getting snapped up, and P-Fresh could potentially end in disaster if they continue down this path.
The problem is that Target has been in food now for over 20 years. They either need to fish or cut bait.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by jamcool »

Target was selling food even back in the 60s, plus having auto centers and gas pumps like most of the regional discount chains. And they too have also expanded by taking over the sites of defunct chains like Fedmart and Zodys-which helped Target expand West
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by pseudo3d »

wnetmacman wrote:Let me repeat and requote myself here, and add Target red for emphasis:
wnetmacman wrote:Target has *always* been that narrow minded
I went in my first Target store in Houston in 1978. Even then, the store was decidedly more upscale than Kmart or Wal-Mart at the time. At that time, Lego wouldn't sell to Wal-Mart or Kmart, deeming them too dumpy and dowdy for their needs. Target had the full line on their shelves. For a 6 year old, when Lego availability was highly limited, it was a feast! Also, clothing wasn't limited to Kmart's Polyester Palace fare, they had real name brand stuff in there.
I meant the difference between "more upscale than the other discounters" and the current mix of merchandise and the very specific demographic they want to chase after. The Target of 1995 is much closer to the Walmart of today (minus the food selection and being, well, Walmart) than the Target of today. That's one of the things I noticed when my Walmart expanded to a Supercenter with the Project Impact layout how similar it was to the Target layout, with the electronics in almost the same place and others (jewelry, shoes) in similar places as well.
pseudo3d wrote:eliminating the garden center (which admittedly has never been universal and the vast majority of them were in California)
The Garden Centers that Target did install were, just plain out, in the wrong places. They selected largely urban stores, where folks had no garden or yard to speak of, so they failed.
Did I say California? I meant Florida, although CA had many as well.
pseudo3d wrote:eliminating Target Greatland
The only real thing that separated Target Greatland was a second set of doors. Otherwise, it was essentially a larger Target. [/quote]
Target Greatland had at least the square footage that they needed (~150k) to run P-Fresh or other similar projects, but they're also pushing P-Fresh in stores well under 100k square feet, and the more merchandise you cram into a smaller space, the selection and depth suffers.
pseudo3d wrote:Food is not a good attempt for Target and it's the wrong time to be getting into it (drug stores pushing it, Amazon and grocery delivery, deflation), one only needs to look at the changing face of the supermarket industry as weaker players are closing stores or getting snapped up, and P-Fresh could potentially end in disaster if they continue down this path.
The problem is that Target has been in food now for over 20 years. They either need to fish or cut bait.
With the exception of SuperTarget, Target food selection prior to remodels in the early 2000s (before P-Fresh) didn't have much more than candy, chips, soda, etc. Target has treated SuperTarget so poorly that I don't think their obsession with larger food selection has anything to do with "justifying" SuperTarget.
jamcool wrote: Target was selling food even back in the 60s, plus having auto centers and gas pumps like most of the regional discount chains.
The 1960s "Target Foods" was no different than Kmart Foods, which had an associated local supermarket just using their name and no actual cross-merchandising.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by Super S »

pseudo3d wrote:
wnetmacman wrote:Let me repeat and requote myself here, and add Target red for emphasis:
wnetmacman wrote:Target has *always* been that narrow minded
I went in my first Target store in Houston in 1978. Even then, the store was decidedly more upscale than Kmart or Wal-Mart at the time. At that time, Lego wouldn't sell to Wal-Mart or Kmart, deeming them too dumpy and dowdy for their needs. Target had the full line on their shelves. For a 6 year old, when Lego availability was highly limited, it was a feast! Also, clothing wasn't limited to Kmart's Polyester Palace fare, they had real name brand stuff in there.
I meant the difference between "more upscale than the other discounters" and the current mix of merchandise and the very specific demographic they want to chase after. The Target of 1995 is much closer to the Walmart of today (minus the food selection and being, well, Walmart) than the Target of today. That's one of the things I noticed when my Walmart expanded to a Supercenter with the Project Impact layout how similar it was to the Target layout, with the electronics in almost the same place and others (jewelry, shoes) in similar places as well.
pseudo3d wrote:eliminating the garden center (which admittedly has never been universal and the vast majority of them were in California)
The Garden Centers that Target did install were, just plain out, in the wrong places. They selected largely urban stores, where folks had no garden or yard to speak of, so they failed.
Did I say California? I meant Florida, although CA had many as well.
pseudo3d wrote:eliminating Target Greatland
The only real thing that separated Target Greatland was a second set of doors. Otherwise, it was essentially a larger Target.
Target Greatland had at least the square footage that they needed (~150k) to run P-Fresh or other similar projects, but they're also pushing P-Fresh in stores well under 100k square feet, and the more merchandise you cram into a smaller space, the selection and depth suffers.
pseudo3d wrote:Food is not a good attempt for Target and it's the wrong time to be getting into it (drug stores pushing it, Amazon and grocery delivery, deflation), one only needs to look at the changing face of the supermarket industry as weaker players are closing stores or getting snapped up, and P-Fresh could potentially end in disaster if they continue down this path.
The problem is that Target has been in food now for over 20 years. They either need to fish or cut bait.
With the exception of SuperTarget, Target food selection prior to remodels in the early 2000s (before P-Fresh) didn't have much more than candy, chips, soda, etc. Target has treated SuperTarget so poorly that I don't think their obsession with larger food selection has anything to do with "justifying" SuperTarget.
jamcool wrote: Target was selling food even back in the 60s, plus having auto centers and gas pumps like most of the regional discount chains.
The 1960s "Target Foods" was no different than Kmart Foods, which had an associated local supermarket just using their name and no actual cross-merchandising.[/quote]

Target did indeed have a merchandise mix closer to Walmart at least until the late 1990s. Among other things, they had a bigger automotive department and sold full cases of oil, filters (they even caried ACDelco), spark plugs, and many other items. Prices were also more competitive at that point, even with no Walmart presence where I live at that time. They also had a bigger sporting goods department, and while they did not sell firearms or fishing licenses, they did have a pretty decent selection of fishing gear and a wider range of sporting goods items. Their ready-to-assemble furniture was also more basic in design, but also more reasonably priced. About the only real difference then was that Target did maintain nicer stores and only had minor price differences. Although back then only a handful of Target stores had pharmacy departments.

As for food items, they carried a limited selection of basic canned/packaged stuff, but would have pretty good sales from time to time so stuff did get rotated through instead of sitting on the shelf too long.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by architect »

Bringing this topic back around, in DFW, there are actually two different grocery remodel packages being used around the market. The first of these formats (and the more common of the two) can be found at this store in north Dallas: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Targe ... 1852?hl=en. This format has been adapted for both SuperTarget and standard Target locations, and features new signage and flooring throughout, new fixtures throughout the grocery areas, track lighting for spotlighting around the store, renovated restrooms, and in some cases a moving of entire departments. This format has been discussed previously on here, and seems to be rolling out in other areas of the country too.

On the other hand, another decor package can be found in a few DFW SuperTarget locations which is noticeably cheaper.
Stores which feature this decor include locations in Richardson, North Garland and Lewisville just to name a few. This package includes essentially just a fresh coat of paint around the perimeter of the store along with basic signage, while all old flooring and fixtures are retained. An example can be seen at this store in Richardson: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Targe ... 7303?hl=en. Overall, I am not impressed.

In many ways, these cheapened renovations remind me of the cheap Lifestyle remodels which Safeway was piecemealing together with cardboard non-backlit signage a few years ago. I wonder if Target is minimally investing in these stores due to low volume which could make them candidates for closure? Also, as a side note, Target has already refreshed the grocery signage in these stores since their renovation earlier this year, likely due to the original signage being to small proportionally and difficult to see.
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Re: Target attempting to step up their grocery game in DFW

Post by klkla »

architect wrote: October 16th, 2017, 5:35 pm Bringing this topic back around, in DFW, there are actually two different grocery remodel packages being used around the market. The first of these formats (and the more common of the two) can be found at this store in north Dallas: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Targe ... 1852?hl=en. This format has been adapted for both SuperTarget and standard Target locations, and features new signage and flooring throughout, new fixtures throughout the grocery areas, track lighting for spotlighting around the store, renovated restrooms, and in some cases a moving of entire departments. This format has been discussed previously on here, and seems to be rolling out in other areas of the country too.
Safeway Florida wants their décor package back!

They look similar although I have to admit that Target's interpretation looks better (probably because of the lighting):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Targe ... 1852?hl=en
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