Phoenix Flexible Format Target Opens

[rwsandiego]

The new flexible format Target at 16th and Camelback had its soft opening on 7/19 and I checked it out today, 7/20. I was underwhelmed.

The best thing I can say about it is the carts are new and roll smoothly. The grocery section didn't have much selection, but to their credit they are heavy on organics and natural items, which will play well in the area. That said, there's a Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, and Fry's within a few blocks of this store and Target closes at 10:00, so unless they beef up selection and drop prices, there will be no reason to buy groceries here. The cleaning products section wasn't great and from what I can tell the health and beauty wasn't, either. They should have nixed men's clothing and expanded cleaning products and groceries.

Had Target built in downtown Phoenix, which is more walkable and could use this type of store, I'd think it was a great store. However, if I have to drive to a store that might not have what I am looking for I might as well drive to a real Target.

[pseudo3d]

The new flexible format Target at 16th and Camelback had its soft opening on 7/19 and I checked it out today, 7/20. I was underwhelmed.

The best thing I can say about it is the carts are new and roll smoothly. The grocery section didn't have much selection, but to their credit they are heavy on organics and natural items, which will play well in the area. That said, there's a Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, and Fry's within a few blocks of this store and Target closes at 10:00, so unless they beef up selection and drop prices, there will be no reason to buy groceries here. The cleaning products section wasn't great and from what I can tell the health and beauty wasn't, either. They should have nixed men's clothing and expanded cleaning products and groceries.

Had Target built in downtown Phoenix, which is more walkable and could use this type of store, I'd think it was a great store. However, if I have to drive to a store that might not have what I am looking for I might as well drive to a real Target.

Target has been on the "almost never" list for me for a few years now. My most recent purchase was a Nintendo 3DS AC adapter since Walmart was out, but it's nothing to make a stop for. The general merchandise selection isn't as comprehensive as Walmart and not much better quality, the clothing selection is almost as expensive as a normal discount on a department store but much worse quality and selection, and the food selection is neither particularly cheap or as deep as anything a real supermarket has.

[rwsandiego]

The new flexible format Target at 16th and Camelback had its soft opening on 7/19 and I checked it out today, 7/20. I was underwhelmed.

The best thing I can say about it is the carts are new and roll smoothly. The grocery section didn't have much selection, but to their credit they are heavy on organics and natural items, which will play well in the area. That said, there's a Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, and Fry's within a few blocks of this store and Target closes at 10:00, so unless they beef up selection and drop prices, there will be no reason to buy groceries here. The cleaning products section wasn't great and from what I can tell the health and beauty wasn't, either. They should have nixed men's clothing and expanded cleaning products and groceries.

Had Target built in downtown Phoenix, which is more walkable and could use this type of store, I'd think it was a great store. However, if I have to drive to a store that might not have what I am looking for I might as well drive to a real Target.

Target has been on the "almost never" list for me for a few years now. My most recent purchase was a Nintendo 3DS AC adapter since Walmart was out, but it's nothing to make a stop for. The general merchandise selection isn't as comprehensive as Walmart and not much better quality, the clothing selection is almost as expensive as a normal discount on a department store but much worse quality and selection, and the food selection is neither particularly cheap or as deep as anything a real supermarket has.

I find myself buying less and less there.

Forgive me if I am repeating myself, but when moving from Chicago to San Diego and then from place to place in SD, Target was my go-to for household goods. Drawer organizers, closet stuff, bakers racks, cleaning products, mops, brooms - you name it, I bought it at Target. When I moved from San Diego to Phonex most everything came from The Container Store and Walmart because Target simply didn't have the things I needed. Thinking back to organization and household projects back in SD, starting around 2010 Target had less and less of what I wanted. They discontinued brands and products that are readily available at Walmart and The Container Store. They also started making changes to items such as closet organizers, cabinet shelves, and plastic storage bins, resulting in new stuff not fitting with the older stuff. The Container Store, on the other hand, hasn't changed the design of their standard storage bins in 20 years. And why should they - it is a storage bin! So, guess where I buy storage bins?

Target's clothing is a joke. I don't even know where to start. Suffice to say I haven't bought any clothing there in a few years. Like you said, the quality of the material and workmanship is inferior to that of department store merchandise and the prices are as much or more than department store sale prices.

Target shopping used to be fun. It isn't fun anymore.

[wnetmacman]

Expecting Target to carry everything is misguided. Their mantra has *always* been 'Cheap Chic'. They don't carry a large amount of tools; only the trendy ones. They don't carry all lines of household items, only the trendy ones. Clothing has always been a miss for me, as they don't (and refuse to) carry big sizes. Toys are okay, but Electronics is their most comprehensive department, and even that misses a lot. Someone at CVS must have owed someone at Target big, because the CVS Pharmacy at Target is also a big joke. To this day, Target still refuses to put a pharmacy in every store.

Walmart has had Target leaning tendencies, but they always remove them, because that isn't what their customer wants, and they know it. They react fast, and fix issues before they cost the company.

Target isn't going to change for the consumer. It may be their downfall at some point in the future.

[rwsandiego]

Expecting Target to carry everything is misguided. Their mantra has *always* been 'Cheap Chic'. They don't carry a large amount of tools; only the trendy ones. They don't carry all lines of household items, only the trendy ones. Clothing has always been a miss for me, as they don't (and refuse to) carry big sizes. Toys are okay, but Electronics is their most comprehensive department, and even that misses a lot. Someone at CVS must have owed someone at Target big, because the CVS Pharmacy at Target is also a big joke. To this day, Target still refuses to put a pharmacy in every store.

Walmart has had Target leaning tendencies, but they always remove them, because that isn't what their customer wants, and they know it. They react fast, and fix issues before they cost the company.

Target isn't going to change for the consumer. It may be their downfall at some point in the future.

Problem is, they aren't chic, either!

In fairness, much of their merchandise is great, but they need to analyze data on what their target customer buys and start carrying it.

Funny thing about Walmart is their customers complain about their stores, but they still shop there.

I noticed the decline starting when they sold Marshall Fields.

[storewanderer]

Target isn't Cheap or Chic. Target is lost. These "flexible format" stores only blur the customer's general impression of a Target Store.

I thought the City Target was pretty good when I first saw one in San Francisco, and also in downtown Chicago. But these new 20,000 square foot Targets may as well be a CVS (albeit their prices are better...) because they are a far stretch from a standard issue Target and what items they carry is a total wild card.

Their merchandising has become sloppy and non-sensical. I was in one last weekend who has pallets of soda and charcoal on the carpet alongside the closed jewelry case. I haven't seen merchandising this bad in a Kmart.

I also noticed last weekend they have made a lot of "new lower price" on food items. These prices are pretty good. These prices actually look like the old Target food pricing as they were rolling out P-Fresh. But it is "new lower prices" on general mainstream commodity food items. Why are they spending money on this? I thought Target was going to focus its food more on natural/specialty/organic items? Or was that three or four strategies ago? They change strategy so often maybe I am not quite up to speed on what they are doing.

My other observation is the professionalism of the Target Store has declined significantly over the past 15 years and that was something that used to set Target far apart from Wal Mart and Kmart who have always had issues with this. 15 years ago at Target, employee uniforms were perfect red collared shirts all in the Target Red shade and khaki pants and the employees looked very uniform. Now I have noticed a variance of color shades and styles (some even non-collared) on the red shirts, seen some employees working in blue jeans, and just in general a really sloppy employee appearance.

Target's clothing program appears to be very troubled. I don't see nearly as much clothing being bought as I used to. Men's and Kid's clothing categories appear to be particular problem spots and I don't know how those have been allowed to decline to the point they have. Women's appears to still sell some items. I'm not even sure why, given the quality of what is being offered and how it is priced. I suppose those are good customers for Target as they will pay too high of a price for lousy merchandise and if they are doing it in the clothing area chances are they can also be suckered in other departments as well.

[rwsandiego]

I agree with you on the City Target concept, @storewanderer. They did a nice job with the old Carson's store on State Street and both the Beverly Connection and Westwood stores in LA are very nice. The Target Express in South Park San Diego seems a bit pointless, although they do have a good selection of grocery basics and did an excellent job maintaining the elements of the building's original occupant - a Marina Safeway. However, the South Park San Diego store is the right size for that type of store. The Camelback store is 50K square feet - too big for an Express and too small for a City Target.

Funny you mentioned the decline in the professionalism of the stores. In the San Diego area, where I lived at the time, the decline started after they sold the department store division. At one time, they were a department store that sold lower-priced merchandise, but that merchandise had a quality department store vibe. Now, they feel like a red Walmart with ceiling tiles.

[storewanderer]

I wondered at the time Target outsourced pharmacy to CVS if this was the first of multiple potential outsourcing deals for Target.

They could outsource clothing to a fast fashion retailer, outsource the rest of the drug/cosmetics category to CVS...

I never thought of it as someone at one of the companies owing something to the other, but the fact that it is the only outsourcing deal, does make one wonder...

I think Target will learn the hard way about ROI on small stores, like Wal Mart did. The difference is Wal Mart opened small stores in tiny towns that did little volume (and also had low expenses). Target is opening small stores in very high cost locations, and they will do a little more volume... but will it be enough to offset costs? Time will tell.

[pseudo3d]

Expecting Target to carry everything is misguided. Their mantra has *always* been 'Cheap Chic'. They don't carry a large amount of tools; only the trendy ones. They don't carry all lines of household items, only the trendy ones. Clothing has always been a miss for me, as they don't (and refuse to) carry big sizes. Toys are okay, but Electronics is their most comprehensive department, and even that misses a lot. Someone at CVS must have owed someone at Target big, because the CVS Pharmacy at Target is also a big joke. To this day, Target still refuses to put a pharmacy in every store.

Walmart has had Target leaning tendencies, but they always remove them, because that isn't what their customer wants, and they know it. They react fast, and fix issues before they cost the company.

Target isn't going to change for the consumer. It may be their downfall at some point in the future.

Only since around the early 2000s have they been "cheap chic". Originally, they were much nicer than what Wal-Mart, Kmart, et. al. had with more fashionable clothing departments and a more upscale merchandise mix, like carrying LEGO products, which others didn't. Even into the early 1980s, they had automotive departments like the others did. The merchandising was more aimed toward urban customers, and thus rather than blanketing small towns with it (Wal-Mart) or just multiplying like Kmart did, their store base was in slightly larger towns. Only did they start going "cheap chic" when Kmart and Wal-Mart started catching on, and the last time I was in a Kmart in 2009 (since closed, and the store base has further deteriorated, I'm sure) it felt like how Target used to be like.

Unfortunately, Target does what it wants because it believes that being the only other choice besides Walmart gives it the freedom to do whatever, and I think that their hubris is finally starting to show. The efforts toward CityTarget and the like has increasingly narrowed their customer base, the "urban-dwelling progressive millennial with rich parents" and that's not going to work at the size of the company they've currently got going, and definitely not as store conditions are deteriorating. The most recent Target remodel seems to replace the red walls (with the white neon, which replaced the white walls with the colored neon) with just plain red and gray walls, at least in my neck of the woods. So not only is the merchandising really bad (besides the adapter, the last time I wanted to buy a few things, both items appeared to be already opened and then put back on the shelf--and those were the only ones there), the store no longer looks like what it did.

With the deflation in the grocery industry, I think that Target should've taken a hard look at P-Fresh and decided to not double down on it and focus instead in actually rebuilding a comprehensive merchandise mix in a store that looks and feels nice. That's what Target was at its best, even if the selection wasn't as deep or quite as cheap as Wal-Mart, it had a lot of nicer items and a good presentation (coffeemakers on display, etc.), but that's not really the case anymore.

[wnetmacman]

Only since around the early 2000s have they been "cheap chic".

No, Target has always been Cheap Chic. I have been going to Target stores since at least 1978. The phrase Cheap Chic didn't come along until later, but it has always been Target's mantra.

Originally, they were much nicer than what Wal-Mart, Kmart, et. al. had with more fashionable clothing departments and a more upscale merchandise mix, like carrying LEGO products, which others didn't. Even into the early 1980s, they had automotive departments like the others did. The merchandising was more aimed toward urban customers, and thus rather than blanketing small towns with it (Wal-Mart) or just multiplying like Kmart did, their store base was in slightly larger towns. Only did they start going "cheap chic" when Kmart and Wal-Mart started catching on, and the last time I was in a Kmart in 2009 (since closed, and the store base has further deteriorated, I'm sure) it felt like how Target used to be like.

Well, this is partially correct. Things have always been much nicer at Target, with name brands that the other 3 largest members of the Discounter Class of 1962 didn't (and couldn't) carry. Shoot, Walmart still can't get its hands on Levi's.

So who am I referring to by this class of 1962?

• Kmart, which was created by S.S. Kresge, a dime store
  Woolco, which was created by F.W. Woolworth, a dime store
  Walmart, which was created by Sam Walton and his Walton's dime stores
  And Target, who was created by Dayton's of Minneapolis, a full line department store.

By virtue of its department store roots, Target has always been more upscale. Walmart and Kmart didn't carry Lego until the 1990's, and only then to try to combat Target. Even most of the Target acquisitions (Ayr-Way, from LSAyres, Richway, from Rich's; Gold Circle, from Federated) were all Department Store creations. Venture was a line-by-line copy of Target by one of its creators, John Geisse, by May. (Only Fed-Mart wasn't a true department store creation)

You mention Auto Centers. Full Line Department Stores have Auto Centers. JCPenney, Sears, Montomery Ward, some Macy's, and countless others, including many of the Macy's purchases had them as well. Target, keep in mind, is no longer in that business, and hasn't been since the very early 80's. Kmart left it during their bankruptcy in 2002-2003.

I truly believe that Target had a more controlled expansion than even Walmart, largely because the department store roots actually hindered the organization. In fact, Dayton's (and later Dayton Hudson after the Hudson's merger) reinvented Target at least twice before expanding out of Minnesota, because they tended to lean too high end. Also, unlike Kresge and Woolworth, they had to develop a distribution system.

I have not felt like I was in an old Target in any Kmart, ever. Especially since 2002. The stores of 1990-1997 felt more like Walmart of the time, and Sam Walton even acknowledged that he was concerned with the current management at that time because that was the only era that made an effort to upgrade everything.

Unfortunately, Target does what it wants because it believes that being the only other choice besides Walmart gives it the freedom to do whatever, and I think that their hubris is finally starting to show. The efforts toward CityTarget and the like has increasingly narrowed their customer base, the "urban-dwelling progressive millennial with rich parents" and that's not going to work at the size of the company they've currently got going, and definitely not as store conditions are deteriorating. The most recent Target remodel seems to replace the red walls (with the white neon, which replaced the white walls with the colored neon) with just plain red and gray walls, at least in my neck of the woods. So not only is the merchandising really bad (besides the adapter, the last time I wanted to buy a few things, both items appeared to be already opened and then put back on the shelf--and those were the only ones there), the store no longer looks like what it did.

Usually, trouble with identity is a sign of poor management and vision, something Target has long had trouble with.

With the deflation in the grocery industry, I think that Target should've taken a hard look at P-Fresh and decided to not double down on it and focus instead in actually rebuilding a comprehensive merchandise mix in a store that looks and feels nice. That's what Target was at its best, even if the selection wasn't as deep or quite as cheap as Wal-Mart, it had a lot of nicer items and a good presentation (coffeemakers on display, etc.), but that's not really the case anymore.

Target's food section has always felt like 50% normal, 50% Whole Foods. But they left out the most important stuff in the 50% of each they missed, which has caused them to lose sales to Walmart. P-Fresh was too little, too late, because they can't get it out to all the stores. Their profits aren't making it happen.

To me, Target's recent problems started when their credit card system got hacked via an A/C contractor's computer. That lack of security gave me, an IT guy, a serious lack of confidence in their organization. But to compete with Walmart, you have to do things they don't. Target tries, but fails in that respect alone. Return policies, store atomosphere, and selection hurt them.