Albertsons buys Kings

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storewanderer
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Re: Albertsons buys Kings

Post by storewanderer »

buckguy wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 5:02 am With multiple vaccines on the horizon, the paper bag plant doesn't sound like a great long-term investment.
I don't necessarily disagree with you as to what kind of an investment this is from a business perspective. But I'd rather see someone making paper bags in the US and creating jobs here in the US, than our country not having the capacity to make these bags, and losing that manufacturing to other countries who do have the capacity to make the bags and taking additional US jobs away. I get that it is probably not that many jobs, but we have really lost a lot of jobs in the US over the years with this sort of attitude (oh, that towel factory that moved overseas only had 2,000 employees, that isn't so bad; oh that factory that made plastic wrap and trash bags and sandwich bags that moved overseas only had 500 employees, that isn't so bad; oh, that car plant that moved to Mexico only had 3,000 employees that isn't so bad)- individually these numbers may not sound so bad but in aggregate this is many thousands of lost jobs compounded over many years.

Almost all of the reusable cloth/plastic bags are made overseas, but that is nothing new. However historically most of the single use plastic bags and virtually all of the paper bags have been made in the US.

Also, it seems folks in both political parties who are dealing with plastic bag bans and the paper bag shortage, have different feelings on this as well.

The State of Washington, in conjunction with its plastic bag ban, is using taxpayer money to provide incentives to revitalize the pulp and paper industry and build more paper bag plants in WA/expand capacity of existing plants.

I don't know if the timing of Catsimatidis exploring a paper bag plant in NY in response to that state's plastic bag ban, or the Washington legislature coming up with the idea to provide monetary support to build more paper bag manufacturing capacity in its state, idea in conjunction with its plastic bag ban, came first. I think I heard about it in WA first... but not sure on exact timing of who had the idea first.

But back to my original point given he is looking to build a paper bag plant I do not think Catsimatidis is looking to sell his stores in NYC.

TW-Upstate NY
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Re: Albertsons buys Kings

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storewanderer wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 12:17 pm virtually all of the paper bags have been made in the US.
Not quite all of them-broke down and ended up buying some cleaning supples at Wal-Mart (only place you can get some things) and their paper bags are made in Vietnam of all places.

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Re: Albertsons buys Kings

Post by klkla »

storewanderer wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 12:17 pm But I'd rather see someone making paper bags in the US and creating jobs here in the US, than our country not having the capacity to make these bags, and losing that manufacturing to other countries who do have the capacity to make the bags and taking additional US jobs away.
Jobs like these are very low skill and don't pay well. In cases like this companies look at what the hourly wage of workers will be and the United States cannot compete with countries like China, Vietnam and Mexico at this level. The only way to make this happen would be to restrict the importation of paper bags. I haven't heard of any proposals to do this.

On the other hand we have millions of well paying medium and high skill level jobs that are being filled by Indian and Chinese immigrants, among others, because our education system is so terrible.

We would get a much better return on investment by improving education in the United States than chasing low paying jobs manufacturing low tech products IMO.

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Re: Albertsons buys Kings

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TW-Upstate NY wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 8:59 am
storewanderer wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 12:17 pm virtually all of the paper bags have been made in the US.
Not quite all of them-broke down and ended up buying some cleaning supples at Wal-Mart (only place you can get some things) and their paper bags are made in Vietnam of all places.
That is new. Wal Mart in my area got a pallet of paper bags over a year ago and just recently went through the last of them (not many people wanted them despite they were piled up on the self checkouts). Those paper bags were made in the USA. The reason you are seeing Made in Vietman paper bags now is because these retailers have had to go to overseas suppliers as US suppliers could not meet demand for paper bags due to all of the plastic bag bans that have been implemented.

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Re: Albertsons buys Kings

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klkla wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 1:21 pm Jobs like these are very low skill and don't pay well. In cases like this companies look at what the hourly wage of workers will be and the United States cannot compete with countries like China, Vietnam and Mexico at this level. The only way to make this happen would be to restrict the importation of paper bags. I haven't heard of any proposals to do this.

On the other hand we have millions of well paying medium and high skill level jobs that are being filled by Indian and Chinese immigrants, among others, because our education system is so terrible.

We would get a much better return on investment by improving education in the United States than chasing low paying jobs manufacturing low tech products IMO.
Well, then I guess you don't agree with the State of Washington Legislature, controlled by a certain political party, providing taxpayer money for financial incentives for paper and pulp manufacturing development in conjunction with that state's plastic bag ban.

But at the same time, with Catsimatidis, a private citizen, who is of a different political party than the one controlling the legislature noted above, making the decision as a private businessperson to potentially invest in a paper bag plant in NY, not using tax dollars to do so. Sink or swim private business decision there.

Also at Target, Trader Joe's, CVS, and some other places, I've gotten "reusable" super thick plastic bags that are Made in Germany or Made in France. It isn't just the countries with low labor costs that are exporting bags.

Historically you didn't see many paper bags, specifically large size brown ones, imported because it simply didn't make sense to import them. Some smaller paper bags were imported (lunch bags, party bags, etc.). The larger grocery type paper bags were too bulky, and the cost on the bags was too low for it to make any sense to import them. But when faced with no domestic sources that can meet demand for the the paper bags, now these retailers have no choice but to import the bags.

The jobs at the major bag makers in the US like Crown Poly, International Paper, Hilex, etc. are full time jobs in manufacturing plants that provide employee benefits. They are not all low wage jobs. They pay higher wages than retail store jobs pay and are full time positions unlike many retailer jobs that are overwhelmingly part time. Yeah they are not high skilled jobs but they average over $50k/year in salary and are actually full time positions.

I wouldn't say we should "chase" bag plant jobs and using government funds to chase higher skilled jobs will obviously get a better return on investment, but we don't want to "chase bag plant jobs out of the country" either unless there is an immediate replacement for those jobs. And you can't turn bag plant employees into high skilled employees overnight, that would take some years to retrain, etc. Which is what is happening here when you ban plastic bags (which were made in the USA) and the retailers turn around and start sourcing paper bags from Vietnam in place of those banned plastic bags- you are chasing jobs away.

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Re: Albertsons buys Kings

Post by klkla »

storewanderer wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 5:15 pm Well, then I guess you don't agree with the State of Washington Legislature, controlled by a certain political party, providing taxpayer money for financial incentives for paper and pulp manufacturing development in conjunction with that state's plastic bag ban.
That is a stop-gap measure. Not a long term solution. Long term we need to educate our work force to be abler to perform jobs at a higher skill level that would validate their higher pay.

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Re: Albertsons buys Kings

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klkla wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 5:22 pm
storewanderer wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 5:15 pm Well, then I guess you don't agree with the State of Washington Legislature, controlled by a certain political party, providing taxpayer money for financial incentives for paper and pulp manufacturing development in conjunction with that state's plastic bag ban.
That is a stop-gap measure. Not a long term solution. Long term we need to educate our work force to be abler to perform jobs at a higher skill level that would validate their higher pay.
I understand what you are saying but a lot of folks who do not have an education, etc. are not always in a good position to just stop working for this training even if it is training paid for with the various government programs, WIOA, etc. They may push their kids to get college or some technical certification, etc., but they personally are just in these less skilled jobs trying the best they can to make a living. In my area in NV the retail stores with part time schedules, or full time schedules that have a lot of variation in hours, historically have a really tough time keeping employees. This is due to many warehouses in the area that also have a tough time getting staff and advertise wages $18-$22/hr, all full time, overtime available, with benefits and a consistent schedule. Folks trying to do a career full time job in the retail store will catch wind that a job with some warehouse has a consistent schedule, similar or better benefits, and pays more, and will go there to the warehouse to work instead.

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