Open Discussion: Grocery Formats in Urban WA / OR

[retailfanmitchell019]

Fred Meyer had a lot of different plans before Kroger merged it in.

Fred Meyer was going to build full size Fred Meyer format stores in Arizona. And I suspect they had other territories planned as well. Kroger was so against that they didn't open a fully built store.

Fred Meyer was expanding Ralphs into NorCal with that Albertsons/Lucky divest purchase. Kroger went along with that one but we see what they ultimately did with it.

I think the QFC, Ralphs, and Fred Meyer operation would have been much stronger and more dominant had Fred Meyer remained an independent company. I do think the affiliation with Kroger was a positive for Smiths. I don't think Smiths and Fred Meyer were a great fit really (geographically yes, but that is about where it stopped). However Smiths was a pretty good fit for Kroger.

I also think the affiliation with Fred Meyer was a positive for Kroger. Fred Meyer brought very strong general merchandise programs to Kroger as well as a strong natural foods program. Fred Meyer also brought various diverse private labels to Kroger (not only the general merchandise ones but also the Natural Choices, the Private Selection, the FMV, the Buena Comida) that supplemented Kroger's strong grocery but very "plain vanilla" private label program.

When Albertsons announced the ASC acquisition in 1998, there was actually rumors that Kroger would merge with Safeway. In that scenario, I'm guessing Ahold, who wanted to go west at the time, would've probably bought Fred Meyer.

Fred Meyer also bought some Lucky/Albertsons stores along the Central Coast (including a Lucky under construction in Los Osos which opened as a Ralphs), as well as a 60's gable Albertsons in Laguna Beach. They also bought a Lucky in Santa Fe, NM; converted to a Smith's.
Vons bought some Ralphs/Hughes stores in South OC around that time too.

Did Fred Meyer ever consider building full-size stores down in SoCal ever?
They had land sites around Sacramento that they backed out of, a store in Chico which lasted a couple of years, and a land site in Redding which was sold to Walmart.

Then we have the mostly failed Smith's stores in MT/WY they bought from the Albertsons/Buttrey merger...

[pseudo3d]

Fred Meyer had a lot of different plans before Kroger merged it in.

Fred Meyer was going to build full size Fred Meyer format stores in Arizona. And I suspect they had other territories planned as well. Kroger was so against that they didn't open a fully built store.

Fred Meyer was expanding Ralphs into NorCal with that Albertsons/Lucky divest purchase. Kroger went along with that one but we see what they ultimately did with it.

I think the QFC, Ralphs, and Fred Meyer operation would have been much stronger and more dominant had Fred Meyer remained an independent company. I do think the affiliation with Kroger was a positive for Smiths. I don't think Smiths and Fred Meyer were a great fit really (geographically yes, but that is about where it stopped). However Smiths was a pretty good fit for Kroger.

I also think the affiliation with Fred Meyer was a positive for Kroger. Fred Meyer brought very strong general merchandise programs to Kroger as well as a strong natural foods program. Fred Meyer also brought various diverse private labels to Kroger (not only the general merchandise ones but also the Natural Choices, the Private Selection, the FMV, the Buena Comida) that supplemented Kroger's strong grocery but very "plain vanilla" private label program.

When Albertsons announced the ASC acquisition in 1998, there was actually rumors that Kroger would merge with Safeway. In that scenario, I'm guessing Ahold, who wanted to go west at the time, would've probably bought Fred Meyer.

Fred Meyer also bought some Lucky/Albertsons stores along the Central Coast (including a Lucky under construction in Los Osos which opened as a Ralphs), as well as a 60's gable Albertsons in Laguna Beach. They also bought a Lucky in Santa Fe, NM; converted to a Smith's.
Vons bought some Ralphs/Hughes stores in South OC around that time too.

Did Fred Meyer ever consider building full-size stores down in SoCal ever?
They had land sites around Sacramento that they backed out of, a store in Chico which lasted a couple of years, and a land site in Redding which was sold to Walmart.

Then we have the mostly failed Smith's stores in MT/WY they bought from the Albertsons/Buttrey merger...

By the time the Lucky/Albertsons merger happened, Fred Meyer was owned by Kroger. So it was Kroger that actually tried to expand Ralphs into NorCal, not Fred Meyer, via some Albertsons/Lucky purchases (the Buttrey purchased might've predated Kroger).

Meanwhile, it was Kroger who pulled the plug on the El Paso Smith's stores, which were isolated from both the Smith's closer to their west coast operations and the Kroger stores they had in Houston (nearly 800 miles away!) and sold them to Fleming (Rainbow Foods), and then those stores were sold to Albertsons when Fleming dissolved a few years later, which sourced them out from the Southwest division (though even today, the stores are operated a bit differently from the mainline Southwest division).

Now that I think about it, most of the western U.S. markets where Kroger has a definitive lead over Albertsons/Safeway seems to come from what they acquired with Dillons (Fry's, King Soopers), not Fred Meyer.

[babs]

Fred Meyer had a lot of different plans before Kroger merged it in.

Fred Meyer was going to build full size Fred Meyer format stores in Arizona. And I suspect they had other territories planned as well. Kroger was so against that they didn't open a fully built store.

Fred Meyer was expanding Ralphs into NorCal with that Albertsons/Lucky divest purchase. Kroger went along with that one but we see what they ultimately did with it.

I think the QFC, Ralphs, and Fred Meyer operation would have been much stronger and more dominant had Fred Meyer remained an independent company. I do think the affiliation with Kroger was a positive for Smiths. I don't think Smiths and Fred Meyer were a great fit really (geographically yes, but that is about where it stopped). However Smiths was a pretty good fit for Kroger.

I also think the affiliation with Fred Meyer was a positive for Kroger. Fred Meyer brought very strong general merchandise programs to Kroger as well as a strong natural foods program. Fred Meyer also brought various diverse private labels to Kroger (not only the general merchandise ones but also the Natural Choices, the Private Selection, the FMV, the Buena Comida) that supplemented Kroger's strong grocery but very "plain vanilla" private label program.

When Albertsons announced the ASC acquisition in 1998, there was actually rumors that Kroger would merge with Safeway. In that scenario, I'm guessing Ahold, who wanted to go west at the time, would've probably bought Fred Meyer.

Fred Meyer also bought some Lucky/Albertsons stores along the Central Coast (including a Lucky under construction in Los Osos which opened as a Ralphs), as well as a 60's gable Albertsons in Laguna Beach. They also bought a Lucky in Santa Fe, NM; converted to a Smith's.
Vons bought some Ralphs/Hughes stores in South OC around that time too.

Did Fred Meyer ever consider building full-size stores down in SoCal ever?
They had land sites around Sacramento that they backed out of, a store in Chico which lasted a couple of years, and a land site in Redding which was sold to Walmart.

Then we have the mostly failed Smith's stores in MT/WY they bought from the Albertsons/Buttrey merger...

Actually at that time Fred Meyer was in discussions to buy Albertsons via Yucaipa. When they refused Yucaipa arranged the Kroger merger. Ah, the grocery mergers of the '90s!

[kr.abs.swy]

I don't think we should be too hard on Smith's for the Montana/Wyoming failures. In most cases, Albertsons kept the best locations out of the combined Albertsons/Buttrey portfolio and Smith's took the crummy stores. They probably got most of these stores for a song and figured they'd roll the dice.

In Billings, Smith's took an outdated Albertsons while Albertsons kept a newer nearby Buttrey in both cases, in Billings and in the Heights (the Heights Albertsons was fine, but the downtown one was really outdated).

In Helena, Smith's took a Buttrey on a relatively gloomy stretch of road while Albertsons kept the better store further up the road in a newer shopping center (not sure if it was an Albertsons or a Buttrey).

In Cody, Smith's got a really outdated store that wasn't even originally a Buttrey, hadn't been remodeled, and wasn't far from the Albertsons.

If you map the divested locations (https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-r ... erger-keep) you find a lot of locations aren't even grocery stores any longer.

Even in Bozeman, where Smith's continues to operate, they moved the store a mile or two away (not sure what the deal here was; the Buttrey was in a mall very close to an Albertsons; the space became either a movie theater or Barnes & Noble -- I'm not sure which).

Then we have the mostly failed Smith's stores in MT/WY they bought from the Albertsons/Buttrey merger...

[dcpeachy]

Even in Bozeman, where Smith's continues to operate, they moved the store a mile or two away (not sure what the deal here was; the Buttrey was in a mall very close to an Albertsons; the space became either a movie theater or Barnes & Noble -- I'm not sure which).

The Bozeman space was at one time Payless Drugs, then Buttrey Big Fresh (including a full food court), then Smith's, before becoming Barnes & Noble and the movie theater. I remember it being slowly downsized by Payless by creating walls of shelving prior to closing completely.

[storewanderer]

Montana/Wyoming was a bad situation for Smiths. Smiths did not exactly run a high quality operation in the late 90's/early 00's and though they skewed toward discount pricing they were not as discount as Wal Mart who was expanding heavily into their markets. Smiths operationally also seemed to have some problems at that time, wasn't real great on product freshness and store standards were not great. Despite this Smiths own stores did pull pretty high sales volumes in the late 90's/early 00's and in the major markets in Utah, NM, and Las Vegas Smiths did have some well run stores.

So Smiths got what was probably the worst physical store in most cases in MT/WY, stores that were half the size of a typical Smiths, Smiths did not have the best quality, did not have the best prices, and basically had little to offer the customer in those markets. Smiths was in a very bad position to compete in those markets with the stores they bought. The store volumes some of those stores did were so low it is amazing they stayed open as long as they did. Smiths did not do any remodeling, etc. I think it was pretty clear the stores were not a great fit for Smiths. That is an example of Fred Meyer wanting to expand into a certain territory and pushing stores onto Smiths that were lousy stores and also not a good fit for Smiths or its format. Many of those stores were basically destined to fail before Smiths even turned on the lights. This is the type of thing I refer to when I say Fred Meyer and Smiths were not a great match in how they did things or their go to market strategies.

But Smiths is still running a few of those former Buttrey/Albertsons Stores... they didn't all close.. Great Falls even finally got a remodel out of the Buttrey interior a couple years ago. Columbia Falls also finally got a remodel out of the early 90's Fred Meyer interior.

Also the El Paso Smiths went away due to some kind of trade with Fleming where Smiths got some Furrs Stores around Albuquerque. I'm not sure how Smiths was doing in El Paso but the stores did not close due to an outright market exit- there was another piece to that situation. And most of those are still open as Albertsons at this time.

Also when Kroger and Fred Meyer merged the 2 Smiths in Cheyenne were ordered divested to Nash Finch as there was a new King Soopers there in Cheyenne they (wisely) kept.

Generally speaking in the core territories with Smiths own stores that they built and developed (UT, NV, NM) Smiths has a low failure rate. Smiths failures have largely been of stores purchased from other parties or the SoCal thing.

[jamcool]

I still don’t know why the Smith’s banner is still in NM, which is isolated from their base UT/NV stores, it should have been combined with King Soopers or Fry’s

[Super S]

I seem to recall that Smith's has had a single store presence in Casper for many years. Looking at Google photos, one thing I did notice is that they have floors that look a lot like the ones Fred Meyer was installing in the early 2000s. I am not sure how well this store does though.

Back to the northwest....I am curious if Rosauer's will open more locations in western Washington. They have a new location in Ridgefield which should do well as it is the only true supermarket in town, and they have seen a HUGE influx of new homes. They did place the store well for growth. I personally would like to see another conventional grocer. Most independents have disappeared except for smaller towns, and the Thriftway name in southwest Washington and Oregon seems to be fading away (a different Thriftway than the Seattle area)

[retailfanmitchell019]

Back to the northwest....I am curious if Rosauer's will open more locations in western Washington. They have a new location in Ridgefield which should do well as it is the only true supermarket in town, and they have seen a HUGE influx of new homes. They did place the store well for growth. I personally would like to see another conventional grocer. Most independents have disappeared except for smaller towns, and the Thriftway name in southwest Washington and Oregon seems to be fading away (a different Thriftway than the Seattle area)

Trader Joe's took over part of the closed Rosauers in Meridian, ID. Why did they fail there?

[klkla]

I still don’t know why the Smith’s banner is still in NM, which is isolated from their base UT/NV stores, it should have been combined with King Soopers or Fry’s

Neither the King Soopers or the Fry's brands are know in NM so it wouldn't be beneficial to change them now. Operationally it might make sense to merge them with either division but a banner change isn't needed. At the time they were also expanding in the El Paso area and Arizona so it made sense then.