Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by veteran+ »

HCal wrote: January 9th, 2024, 12:16 am
storewanderer wrote: January 8th, 2024, 11:11 pm
In the 80's the only thing sold in the east was Richmond division and it was a late sale and for performance reasons. Also the sale of some of the divisions like Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, were also for performance reasons (hence the buyers who ended up going bankrupt) as they said their cost structure was too high in those markets (union). They took the money and ran. What did they sell in Canada? Did they go further east in Canada in the 80's? The main Canada operation was not sold until after Steve Burd retired.
They had some stores in the Toronto area which were sold in the '80s to Oshawa Group, which was ultimately acquired by Sobeys. I can't find too much information but this thread has some links: https://www.groceteria.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=1130
storewanderer wrote: January 8th, 2024, 11:11 pm The old Safeway had PDC which was to redevelop Safeway Stores into sites with mixed use housing/commercial but Albertsons did not keep that going. I agree with your concern about them not having the time, money, or expertise to get that rolling again at this time and what do you think about Kroger who seems to be rather not good (trying to be polite) at operating big city stores in the first place trying that?

But the old Safeway may have been able to make a go of PDC. Look at how they made a go of the gift card division and spun it off as Blackhawk.
I don't think either Albertsons or Kroger is going to get into property development now. Best case scenario, they sell the site to a developer with a provision for them to lease space in the new development for a supermarket at a favorable rate. Ralphs does well in DTLA, so maybe that concept can be replicated in SF. I would think that having a supermarket in/adjacent to the building will increase rents.
The problem with Ralphs is upkeep of what they build, even if the store design is very productive, efficient and successful.

The Pavilions in West Hollywood is the highest volume store in the Albertsons company (according to the Store Director). The store is well maintained, clean, easy to shop with much better than average customer service (this includes better than Traders, WF, Gelsons and others). Perhaps Bristol Farms is slightly better.

Rock n Rolls Ralphs is purportedly the highest volume Ralphs amongst Ralphs stores. That store is categorically the opposite of Pavilions.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by ClownLoach »

veteran+ wrote: January 9th, 2024, 8:26 am
ClownLoach wrote: January 8th, 2024, 7:19 pm
mjhale wrote: January 8th, 2024, 7:04 pm In a redevelopment, why wouldn't the developer and/or the city want Safeway to continue as a tenant in the project? If all of these Safeway sites are redeveloped into housing only where do people shop for groceries? I haven't been to San Francisco in 15 years but back then the only major grocer I recall was Safeway. Is public transit good enough that people could get to a still operating but more distant Safeway location without too much trouble? The other thing I was wondering was if Safeway renting in a redevelopment as opposed to a property they own makes the store unprofitable even with a high volume. Add the now extra costs needed to mitigate for theft and I can see where rent in a high dollar property could tip the scales in terms of profitability.
When housing is going for well over $1,000 per square foot, then you are losing money by making it available for much cheaper retail usage.

The developers who want these supermarket sites only want enough of a retail development to be able to still call it "mixed use" which currently is enabling them to get around many building regulations and requirements. So they're perfectly satisfied demolishing a full strip mall anchored by a Safeway and replacing it with a Starbucks and maybe a 7-Eleven.

And then look at how deeply Jeff Bezos is personally invested in the developers who want to destroy all of the retail space. They don't want you to have a grocery store or any place else to shop besides Amazon. They won't have a supermarket, but you can be sure they'll have dedicated delivery parking and Amazon mailboxes.

And they sponsor politicians who will keep spinning the lie that there is a housing shortage in the state, which means we must destroy the retail space and make it residential. Never mind the fact that the government census data shows there is in fact a large SURPLUS of housing units in California versus households, and on top of that we know more people are moving out than in.

And what supermarket would be profitable with an average transaction so small that it could be carried on a bus or subway train?
California's population loss is slowing down. Last year was 0.2 %
Either way California already had about 3 Million more housing units than households according to the new Census, and since that was taken a substantial number of additional units (I believe about 1.5M) have been completed while population was negative. Yes I am keenly aware of the fact that the developers keep building high $$$, but the very costs of building in California mean that's all they can profitably build. So they make the minimum amount of so-called affordable units (which are anything but) and then whatever they're going to lose on those is added to the costs of the rest. And as long as they can continue to demolish truly affordable housing to replace with these new condo or apartment complexes - they'll deliver a net negative of affordable developments.

So we have a scam going where everyone is profiting except for the residents themselves. There is a massive housing surplus, but we encourage the building of units nobody can afford and then scream "housing shortage" to justify the higher prices. And everyone's in on it to perpetuate the matter. The developers don't care how long it takes to sell the overpriced condos or rent the expensive apartments because they get to maintain a very expensive asset on their books which they can borrow against and fund additional business activities with.
Last edited by ClownLoach on January 9th, 2024, 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by ClownLoach »

veteran+ wrote: January 9th, 2024, 8:40 am
HCal wrote: January 9th, 2024, 12:16 am
storewanderer wrote: January 8th, 2024, 11:11 pm
In the 80's the only thing sold in the east was Richmond division and it was a late sale and for performance reasons. Also the sale of some of the divisions like Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, were also for performance reasons (hence the buyers who ended up going bankrupt) as they said their cost structure was too high in those markets (union). They took the money and ran. What did they sell in Canada? Did they go further east in Canada in the 80's? The main Canada operation was not sold until after Steve Burd retired.
They had some stores in the Toronto area which were sold in the '80s to Oshawa Group, which was ultimately acquired by Sobeys. I can't find too much information but this thread has some links: https://www.groceteria.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=1130
storewanderer wrote: January 8th, 2024, 11:11 pm The old Safeway had PDC which was to redevelop Safeway Stores into sites with mixed use housing/commercial but Albertsons did not keep that going. I agree with your concern about them not having the time, money, or expertise to get that rolling again at this time and what do you think about Kroger who seems to be rather not good (trying to be polite) at operating big city stores in the first place trying that?

But the old Safeway may have been able to make a go of PDC. Look at how they made a go of the gift card division and spun it off as Blackhawk.
I don't think either Albertsons or Kroger is going to get into property development now. Best case scenario, they sell the site to a developer with a provision for them to lease space in the new development for a supermarket at a favorable rate. Ralphs does well in DTLA, so maybe that concept can be replicated in SF. I would think that having a supermarket in/adjacent to the building will increase rents.
The problem with Ralphs is upkeep of what they build, even if the store design is very productive, efficient and successful.

The Pavilions in West Hollywood is the highest volume store in the Albertsons company (according to the Store Director). The store is well maintained, clean, easy to shop with much better than average customer service (this includes better than Traders, WF, Gelsons and others). Perhaps Bristol Farms is slightly better.

Rock n Rolls Ralphs is purportedly the highest volume Ralphs amongst Ralphs stores. That store is categorically the opposite of Pavilions.
The giant Ralphs by UCLA is supposedly the highest volume store, which is why they expanded it so dramatically. It is also supposedly one of the top 10 stores in the entire Kroger company and the only top 10 store in California.

I agree that if Kroger does not start to increase the investment in proper upkeep and remodeling schedule for Ralphs then they're going to wind up in a Kmart type situation with a fleet of dilapidated stores. Especially in recent years they feel more like Walmart in their minimal remodeling efforts, failure to replace display cases and fixtures, and generally minimal effort aside from wall paint and graphics changes. Finding many Ralphs stores with bad odor problems especially the meat and seafood areas; this bad sanitation is not present at any Albertsons or Stater Bros stores even old ones. Meat and seafood cases eventually do get corrosion and other damage that allows for odor forming bacteria to develop in crevices and other hard to reach places which is why most other chains have a regular schedule for complete refurbishment or replacements, but under Kroger Ralphs seems to no longer update any of these cases. Very unpleasant and deters customers. An even larger concern is that I have determined that refrigerated goods including milk and bagged salads purchased at Ralphs generally are either bad immediately at sell-by date or sometimes even before - alarming since Ralphs is my closest grocery store so I know that travel in the car isn't causing spoilage. I suspect Ralphs keeps cooler temperatures at whatever the maximum allowable setting is to save energy expense, which is really unacceptable considering their competitors are putting solar on the roof instead so they don't have to worry about energy use as much.

One area of great concern recently however are restrooms. I do not believe Albertsons is even touching restrooms during remodels anymore, was in a very bad restroom the other day in a recent "Florida decor" remodel that had received the higher end version of the package. It clearly had seen no remodel work with graffiti oldest dated 2018 by the taggers. Ralphs restrooms used to be better than average but now they reek from lack of cleaning. One of the worst problems I will find is the noxious sewer gas odor in a restroom coming from the floor drain which indicates it has been weeks or even months since they were adequately mopped so the water in the p-trap has dried up allowing sewer gas to rise. Whenever I detect this odor in a store or restaurant I leave because clearly there are major sanitation issues in the facility.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by veteran+ »

Are you talking about the Ralphs Fresh Fare on Le Conte Av. in Westwood?
Last edited by veteran+ on January 11th, 2024, 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by storewanderer »

ClownLoach wrote: January 9th, 2024, 11:52 am

The giant Ralphs by UCLA is supposedly the highest volume store, which is why they expanded it so dramatically. It is also supposedly one of the top 10 stores in the entire Kroger company and the only top 10 store in California.

I agree that if Kroger does not start to increase the investment in proper upkeep and remodeling schedule for Ralphs then they're going to wind up in a Kmart type situation with a fleet of dilapidated stores. Especially in recent years they feel more like Walmart in their minimal remodeling efforts, failure to replace display cases and fixtures, and generally minimal effort aside from wall paint and graphics changes. Finding many Ralphs stores with bad odor problems especially the meat and seafood areas; this bad sanitation is not present at any Albertsons or Stater Bros stores even old ones. Meat and seafood cases eventually do get corrosion and other damage that allows for odor forming bacteria to develop in crevices and other hard to reach places which is why most other chains have a regular schedule for complete refurbishment or replacements, but under Kroger Ralphs seems to no longer update any of these cases. Very unpleasant and deters customers. An even larger concern is that I have determined that refrigerated goods including milk and bagged salads purchased at Ralphs generally are either bad immediately at sell-by date or sometimes even before - alarming since Ralphs is my closest grocery store so I know that travel in the car isn't causing spoilage. I suspect Ralphs keeps cooler temperatures at whatever the maximum allowable setting is to save energy expense, which is really unacceptable considering their competitors are putting solar on the roof instead so they don't have to worry about energy use as much.

One area of great concern recently however are restrooms. I do not believe Albertsons is even touching restrooms during remodels anymore, was in a very bad restroom the other day in a recent "Florida decor" remodel that had received the higher end version of the package. It clearly had seen no remodel work with graffiti oldest dated 2018 by the taggers. Ralphs restrooms used to be better than average but now they reek from lack of cleaning. One of the worst problems I will find is the noxious sewer gas odor in a restroom coming from the floor drain which indicates it has been weeks or even months since they were adequately mopped so the water in the p-trap has dried up allowing sewer gas to rise. Whenever I detect this odor in a store or restaurant I leave because clearly there are major sanitation issues in the facility.
The problem is Kroger isn't maintaining things. For instance last year Smiths did a remodel of the bathrooms in the Sparks unit. This remodel also occurred some years prior when they remodeled the store, as well as some years prior to that when they remodeled a previous time. The restrooms are not cleaned properly so they are basically no different from before they remodeled (just different color tiles). On the restroom topic in the past with Smiths, any Smiths I went into, I would see a courtesy clerk cleaning restrooms in the evening for 1-2 hours. It was a pretty in depth cleaning; sometimes two of them were involved. I no longer see this happening. I see a really quick wipe down, trash empty, speedy mop, and restock occur that takes less than 20 minutes for both bathrooms.

As far as dairy products with a quick spoil go, do you ever go into the store when their refrigerated truck comes and notice what is happening to pallets of refrigerated product? Is it sitting out on the sales floor when it isn't actively being stocked?

Old cases/refrigeration are an odd thing with Kroger. There seem to be some stores, some departments, that keep getting new cases. Then other stores, other departments, never get anything unless it is a very major remodel.

I've noticed some odor issues with Smiths lately, in a couple of different locations, but it wasn't from around meat/seafood. They seemed to fix both issues. I've watched Smiths in Reno on South Meadows get a new case in seafood at least every 5-ish years. They've had 4 different seafood cases in there since the store opened. The store only had one remodel since it opened and one of those new cases was during the remodel. They have changed the display style in conjunction with new cases (off ice, on ice, 1/2 on ice, off ice again, some refrigerated self serve at waist level below the case now). When they install the new cases it is a big job, they jackhammer out the tile floor below the case and lay a new floor.

Also in the past few weeks with Smiths around Reno they've been replacing all of the self serve bakery cases (which did not need to be replaced) with new cases; the new cases are smaller/not as tall and do not hold as much product. I do not like these new cases; they may look nice enough but they cut variety.

It seems like Kroger is really running Ralphs at a level below the other divisions for some reason. This really makes me wonder why they want Safeway, and more California Stores, given how they have their California Stores Ralphs running poorly compared to the rest of Kroger, higher price scale, etc.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by HCal »

storewanderer wrote: January 9th, 2024, 11:16 pm It seems like Kroger is really running Ralphs at a level below the other divisions for some reason. This really makes me wonder why they want Safeway, and more California Stores, given how they have their California Stores Ralphs running poorly compared to the rest of Kroger, higher price scale, etc.
Cala/Bell failed, Ralphs Norcal expansion failed. Foodsco is okay but too small to matter. Kroger has simply never had any luck in Norcal.

Acquiring the dominant grocer is probably the only way they can get into the market.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by veteran+ »

"As far as dairy products with a quick spoil go, do you ever go into the store when their refrigerated truck comes and notice what is happening to pallets of refrigerated product? Is it sitting out on the sales floor when it isn't actively being stocked?"


YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

I have seen this at Ralphs and Target!

Also with frozen!

This is a violation that causes people to get very sick paired with being extremely under reported and difficult to assign blame.

"Someone" is supposed to do temperature checks to maintain a small variance of degree change. Broken chains of custody regarding temperature from manufacture to transport to retail and finally to eating it is a HUGE problem.
Last edited by veteran+ on January 11th, 2024, 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by mjhale »

ClownLoach wrote: January 9th, 2024, 11:52 am One area of great concern recently however are restrooms. I do not believe Albertsons is even touching restrooms during remodels anymore, was in a very bad restroom the other day in a recent "Florida decor" remodel that had received the higher end version of the package. It clearly had seen no remodel work with graffiti oldest dated 2018 by the taggers. Ralphs restrooms used to be better than average but now they reek from lack of cleaning. One of the worst problems I will find is the noxious sewer gas odor in a restroom coming from the floor drain which indicates it has been weeks or even months since they were adequately mopped so the water in the p-trap has dried up allowing sewer gas to rise. Whenever I detect this odor in a store or restaurant I leave because clearly there are major sanitation issues in the facility.
Despite getting new decor, cases in deli, bakery and service meat as well as painting the other refrigerated and freezer units, Safeway did absolutely nothing with the bathrooms in the Northern Virginia units. The bathrooms haven't been touched since the initial Lifestyle remodels way back when. They have a, well, smell all their own. It isn't horrible and awful to make you never want to go in. But then again, you can tell then they are just doing a surface clean without ever doing any deep cleaning. Safeway really needs someone to come in and power wash the bathrooms from top to bottom on some regular basis. I was in one Safeway a couple of weeks ago that had a rancid odor like something old was found and got broken open. Had I not been purchasing just a couple of canned goods, I would have turned around and left. The smell definitely made me wonder about sanitation elsewhere in the store.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by ClownLoach »

veteran+ wrote: January 10th, 2024, 9:09 am "As far as dairy products with a quick spoil go, do you ever go into the store when their refrigerated truck comes and notice what is happening to pallets of refrigerated product? Is it sitting out on the sales floor when it isn't actively being stocked?"


YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

I have seen this at Ralphs and Target!

Also with frozen!

This is a violation that causes people to get very sick pared with being extremely under reported and difficult to assign blame.

"Someone" is supposed to do temperature checks to maintain a small variance of degree change. Broken chains of custody regarding temperature from manufacture to transport to retail and finally to eating it is a HUGE problem.
Walmart as well. I was warned by a friend who worked at a training store at Walmart where they were behind on freight and they were falling behind on stocking perishables. They were supposed to throw out anything not stocked within a certain time from unload but it wasn't happening.
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Re: Safeway San Francisco closing Webster

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: January 10th, 2024, 9:09 am "As far as dairy products with a quick spoil go, do you ever go into the store when their refrigerated truck comes and notice what is happening to pallets of refrigerated product? Is it sitting out on the sales floor when it isn't actively being stocked?"


YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

I have seen this at Ralphs and Target!

Also with frozen!

This is a violation that causes people to get very sick pared with being extremely under reported and difficult to assign blame.

"Someone" is supposed to do temperature checks to maintain a small variance of degree change. Broken chains of custody regarding temperature from manufacture to transport to retail and finally to eating it is a HUGE problem.
I think these stores with inadqeuate sized backrooms, inadequate refrigerated back room space, or repair issues making it difficult to get things in and out of the walk ins, are prone to these types of problems.

The argument I recently had with one store of one chain that kept doing this, and may still be doing it, is they have that certain amount of time between unloading the stuff, and actually stocking it. So the truck shows up at 9 PM. Stock crew shows up at 10 PM and starts stocking. Supposedly that hour is "okay" for it to sit. Problem is stock crew shows up at 10 PM and doesn't immediately get the entire load broken down and immediately 100% stocked. They start stocking it, and are stocking it for hours. So that doesn't quite work.
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