Receipt Checks coming to Fred Meyer (OMG Why)

[HCal]

The same reason as more remote stores (in any state) have fewer/no locking shelves, no uniformed security guards, no entry/exit gates, etc. There are fewer customers, it is easier to get police/sheriff response to shoplifting in those smaller towns as there is less going on for them too, and there is not as large of a market to resell stolen merchandise because there are fewer people around to resell to.

I wasn't referring to remote stores. I'm talking about places like Fresno, Sacramento, etc. Large cities, lots of items locked up, uniformed security, etc. State bag ban in place, and a good chunk of customers bringing reusable bags. Yet they don't have this problem with organized crime rings like San Francisco or LA.

[storewanderer]

The same reason as more remote stores (in any state) have fewer/no locking shelves, no uniformed security guards, no entry/exit gates, etc. There are fewer customers, it is easier to get police/sheriff response to shoplifting in those smaller towns as there is less going on for them too, and there is not as large of a market to resell stolen merchandise because there are fewer people around to resell to.

I wasn't referring to remote stores. I'm talking about places like Fresno, Sacramento, etc. Large cities, lots of items locked up, uniformed security, etc. State bag ban in place, and a good chunk of customers bringing reusable bags. Yet they don't have this problem with organized crime rings like San Francisco or LA.

Lots of items locked up is actually the signal that there is a problem with organized crime rings...

Sacramento absolutely has issues with theft/organized retail crime hitting certain chain stores there (big problems for Target and Wal Mart specifically). There is more locked up at Safeway, CVS, Rite Aid, and Walgreens units around Sacramento than you see at the more remote stores (Auburn, Placerville, etc.). Five years ago there wasn't much theft issue around Sacramento. It has just exploded. The issues are not historically throughout the area but they are quickly spreading throughout the area. Placer County (Roseville) is also quite good at responding to shoplifter calls which helps a lot.

I can't speak for Fresno but from what I've heard it also has issues with this but perhaps the resale market there is not as great.

The issue in Sacramento is somewhat similar to the story I posted weeks ago where a Walgreens in Rohnert Park was closed due to a string of shoplifters during a day. The police caught some of the shoplifters and they were from somewhere else 40-50 miles away (San Francisco, Oakland, wherever, it doesn't matter). My point is Sacramento is an easy "route" to add for organized retail crime rings that are based on the edges of the bay area. As security gets tighter in bay area stores, Sacramento is a little behind due to as you point out historical low theft, so it made Sacramento stores an easier target. Next the more remote stores will become the target, but these groups will run into stores with less foot traffic (so it will be harder for them to blend in) and local police/sheriff forces that actually respond to calls within a few minutes so it will be interesting to see what happens.

[veteran+]

By that logic, if the bag ban/fee is the issue, why do grocery/drug/convenience stores in the rest of California not have much of an issue with theft?

The same reason as more remote stores (in any state) have fewer/no locking shelves, no uniformed security guards, no entry/exit gates, etc. There are fewer customers, it is easier to get police/sheriff response to shoplifting in those smaller towns as there is less going on for them too, and there is not as large of a market to resell stolen merchandise because there are fewer people around to resell to.

I don't think you fully understand how these organized retail crime rings work. They are like retailers. They are no different than a standard retailer- they work on volume. The more they can steal, the more they can sell in a busy highly populated area.

In Denver I witnessed a group that goes around to various fast food places around the core of Denver and sets up inside on the existing tables selling various items like Tide, personal care items, sometimes they have shoes or clothing, etc. Nobody does a thing about it, police do not come out, management of the businesses may kick them out after they've already been inside 30 minutes and after some of their employees have gone and bought items from them, but they are back the next day like clockwork.

As I said before the system is set up to accept a certain amount of theft. The kid who pockets a candy bar or some trading cards, the elderly customer who can't bend well and can't see well who leaves a small bottle of pepper in the bottom corner of the shopping card, the person with no money who steals a loaf of bread, the high school kids who show up and steal an 18pk of beer- the system is set up in a way to absorb those types of thefts as they are low value and infrequent. Also those little petty thefts do not create out of stocks that cause lost sales due to their nature in the majority of cases. Sometimes you get rough stores that have a ton of petty thefts, a lot of slip and falls, and a lot of property damage issues and those stores tend to end up closing and while the petty theft isn't the only reason the stores closed it was a big reason. This has been going on since the 70's and areas like that are often called "food deserts." I don't think bag bans/bag fees have much if any impact on this kind of theft. However, if now that person with no money who before just stole one item thinks gee I can bring in a reusable bag and fill it with 4 items now and get away with it because I'll look like a normal customer... then this theft increases.

These organized retail crime rings who show up and wipe entire shelves in 5 minutes, the system is not set up to absorb that. Also when they take all of the inventory of various items/categories, this creates an out of stock situation where sales from paying customers are lost until the theft is noted, on hand adjusted, and items reordered. Plus the labor cost to sort the situation out. Most of these retailers use computer based ordering from POS scan data so if items are stolen they are not recorded as sold in the POS and not reordered promptly after leaving the building with a shoplifter. It will take weeks or months before the items are even flagged as out of stock when an on-hand is finally done. Many retailers have a task that an employee is supposed to walk the store and scan out of stocks daily or on some frequent schedule but you know how staffing is at many stores since COVID... doesn't always happen.

So again there is theft, there is always going to be theft. It is a matter of discouraging theft to prevent as much theft as possible, especially larger thefts. So when you normalize the behavior of reusable bag use on the sales floor, normalize the practice of taking loose items out of the store in shopping carts unbagged since you now have a bag fee and a lot of customers don't want to pay for bags, now you have made it very easy for the big thieves to steal more and blend in with normal customers so fewer of them will be caught. So while a store may have been able to accept the above casual/small thefts these new additional large thefts are the straw that breaks the camel's back for the store. So did the bag ban/fee "cause" all of the problems? No- but it was the final push that got a bunch of retail executives talking to the investment community about what a problem theft has become...

Add in the fact that these bag bans are accomplishing nothing for the environment thanks to the use of those super thick plastic bags and these bag bans have nothing to do with the bags, or the environment. They seem to have some other meaning, to symbolize something, it seems to be a hate for plastic out of some people, or a hate for big oil, or a hate for anything "single use" - yet the reusable bags are made out of plastic in most cases (and even if cloth they need the 7,100 uses as the Danish study CNN found noted).

These bag fees/bag bans have only served two parties: the plastic companies who are selling more plastic than ever thanks to super thick plastic "reusable" bags (that nobody reuses) and these shoplifter groups.

If 100% of customers used reusable bags and followed the rule of not shopping into them on the sales floor, it may be different, but that is not how this has played out.

I think the bag bans/fees are a scapegoat because retailers want to blame politicians for their problems. It's no different from the "Hero Pay" law that Kroger used as an excuse to close stores in Long Beach. When overpriced stores like Safeway and Walgreens cannot compete in large cities where there are plenty of cheaper options, they close the store and blame it on shoplifting and bag bans rather than their own high prices and bad service.

This is nothing like the "Hero Pay" situation. That was a nasty little temper tantrum to try and scare other cities from passing similar "Hero Pay" laws under the threat if you do it we may close a store in your city...

Back to my comment above about "food deserts" - consider the situation I described above, one example of what created "food deserts" in the 70's and 80's, and how it has taken decades and a lot of subsidies to get grocery stores back into many of those "food desert" neighborhoods? There are not "plenty of cheaper options" in these locations and you may also want to remember those "cheaper options" are often not full service/full line stores, are non-union operations, pay lower pay rates, and have more limited store hours than the major chains like a Safeway or Walgreens, or in a hypothetical case where a Target is lost due to theft/other issues, I am pretty sure there isn't a "cheaper option" so there will be a price increase for the consumer to shop at whatever is still there.

Hcal's point was about corporate behavior.

[BillyGr]

Seems like the scanning thing is a bit of overkill - a much simpler version is a person standing there who simply looks for each customer/cart to have someone hold up a receipt that they can see (without looking closely at it).
That doesn't eliminate all thefts (as they won't catch the people who only paid for 8 items out of 10), but that is the "certain amount of theft" that the system can tolerate, while still getting rid of the large (entire cartful of stuff) thieves (since they would have no receipt to show) and would thus be stopped by a security person once they pass the door (as they are now outside the store with no proof of payment for the items they have with them).

Note also that people do not have to be "in love with bag bans" - they simply don't want to have to pay for bags they don't need (if the reusables weren't allowed) or forced to do double the work (ringing up the purchase, putting it back in the cart then repacking it a second time at the car into the bags they have). Also note that not all areas use any type of plastic to replace them.



Some people did, apparently, use grocery bags for trash, but that certainly wasn't universal - for instance here we take trash to a drop off center run by the local county and pay by the bag.
They used to sell specific bags, but now sell stickers instead, and the cheapest one is good for up to a 30-gallon bag - not too many people would put that on a tiny grocery bag, kind of a waste of money!

The flashing of the receipt has been tried. What happens is people pick up a receipt off the floor, or bring a receipt from last time, or similar, flash it, and exit the store. Remember the old days when Costco hole punched a receipt to exit? This was exactly why. This is why Costco studies your receipt. This is why Wal Mart (before COVID) and Sam's Club had that receipt scanning system made.

The large cart full of stolen items will just walk right out the door while the 5 honest customers with receipts and carts of reusable bags/carts of unbagged items receipts line up for a receipt check... this is the thing. Under the old model where all customers had their purchases bagged by the store the 5 customers would just walk out and leave. The one shoplifter with an unbagged full cart of items would stand out and be noticed and be stopped or at the very least at least stand out due to being unusual (no bags). This is what I am saying- these bag bans make it so the shoplifter blends in with too many paying customers. The #1 rule of anyone trying to commit a crime is they need to blend in as much as possible; that is how someone successfully commits a crime.

Every apartment complex I've ever been at has had dumpsters full of grocery bags filled with trash... (super thick plastic ones now in CA/OR/WA...). Some places are very strict that you need to bag your trash in order to make it more difficult to attract rodents (not sure I follow this as rodents can eat through a bag).

Also almost all of the reusable bags being sold at major retailers everywhere with bag bans in place are made of plastic. Very few are 100% cloth. Even in places like NJ or Philadelphia or NY that prohibit the "super thick reusable plastic bags" they do allow reusable plastic bags to be sold as long as they have a stitched handle so many of these reusables are still plastic even it is if a tarp-like plastic that is still plastic and lots of it (enough plastic to make hundreds of thin bags).

Ok, so you hold up the receipt and they punch a hole - still takes only a second or two (thus no big hold up if they don't scan items) and then the receipt can't be reused. No, I don't remember Costco doing that, since we don't have them (they may get here eventually) but BJ's (which we do have) did something like that, maybe a marker line on it, whatever, still does the same thing.

If the large cart walks out without stopping, the person checking can have a walkie talkie, notify the security who then stops them outside the door. If they can show said person a slip, they can punch/mark it and person goes on there way, no harm to anyone (and their fault for not having stopped the first time) - if not, they have evidence of a person outside the store with items and no proof of purchase, which means they are not purchased but stolen and that is a crime.

As noted, I'm sure some people used grocery bags for garbage, others always bought trash bags, so those who used grocery bags now have to buy bags, but those who never reused them for trash now don't have to get rid of them. Net of equal or less bags total (given that most purchased bags hold more, thus using 1 vs. 4 or 5, plus those who always used trash bags no longer having the unneeded grocery bags).

I'd suspect they want items bagged more since loose stuff would more easily stick to the dumpster and not get removed, vs. the critters.

Certainly the reusable bags are made of plastic in many cases - you referred to "super thick plastic bags" which have been described as a bag the same style as the old ones, just thicker plastic. Those may be used in some states, but at least in NY are NOT permitted - only reusable or paper. These types of reusable bags get reused far more often, where you indicate that the supposedly "reusable" thick plastic ones most often don't.
The only exception might be NJ, since they have to use them for deliveries (given no paper option allowed), and there is no way to return them for the next delivery - that is a flaw in their rules.

[ClownLoach]

Until retailers decide that more payroll is better than more theft.......................this will never change and they will continue to defer responsibilty and blame eveything under the sun, except themselves.

The resuable bag scheme was a lie (more the plastic and less the cloth). As storewanderer has said: the cloth has to be used over and over again for a very long time to be environmentally responsible.

Plastic is plastic is plastic is plastic. To date, it will never be good for the environment.

Paper is not as big of a problem BUT........................................what about those trees? Our exigent need for them is undenialble.

I cannot believe that science has not been able to find an alternative (sustainable & biodegradable)...................but then again, there seems to be no will to make it happen.

As a former retailer, I was never on board with customers bringing in receptacles to a store to shop with, not even large purses. The whole idea is an enabler and accelerator for theft.

Besides the socio-economic issues that are currently so maligned, 2 actions are required to shift this escalating problem.

1. World class customer service ($$$) supported by technology and uber professional security.

2. Staffing the courts around the country (judges, etc.) to open up more time to hear these cases, in tandem with lowering the criterias ($$$) for misdemeanor or even felony theft.
2a. Compel and/or order officers to respond when called (perhaps a "theft cop" division, $$$).

You do know that the trees used to make paper are grown for that purpose… in a tree farm.

Magically Canadian stores have what appear to be traditional single use plastic grocery bags at the registers, but they're made from a 100% biodegradable material. My Canadian relatives were in town a few weeks ago and had some of these bags with them. If you didn't see the "100% biodegradable" printed on them you'd swear they're ordinary plastic. They had them in both t-shirt style and clear tote style.

My understanding is that everything has been banned there, even deli containers and produce bags, unless it's biodegradable. With this blanket ban on the plastics and how they threaten sales magically a solution was developed (for example how could you purchase deli meat unless it was planned and you brought your reusable container?).

So my question is why can they get this right in the Quebec province of Canada, but not in the USA?

[storewanderer]

Actually ClownLoach those biodegradable t shirt bags are banned in Canada too. CoOp is not happy. Here is an article.

They were banned in the same upcoming law that is banning manufacturing and use of various single use plastic and foam items throughout Canada.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-ne ... astics-ban

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/pl ... table-bags

It isn't about the plastic bags. These bans have some other motivator.

[veteran+]

Regarding theft and numbers under the umbrella of "crime".

I often question myself on the legitimacy of my opinions and beliefs (weird, but I have always been like that). I try to uncover that which would change my position.

I have googled voraciously about retail theft (larceny theft, shoplifting, ORC) and other crimes stats.

What is being reported is maligned with errors, manipulations and click bait strategy.

There are areas like Texas, Kansas, Alaska, Florida with significantly worse numbers than California, New York, Illinois.

The words you use to search is paramount: RATE of, Per capita, by State or City or Nationally. The most important being RATE (percentage) and per capita!

Obviously California will be top in Total Dollars............being the most populous State in the Nation. But per capita RATE, it is not even in the top 10.

All this gleaned from Federal, State, City, Law Enforcement, Independant statistics institutions, BIG Loss Prevention entities, etc., etc.

Just sayin...........................................

[BillyGr]

My understanding is that everything has been banned there, even deli containers and produce bags, unless it's biodegradable. With this blanket ban on the plastics and how they threaten sales magically a solution was developed (for example how could you purchase deli meat unless it was planned and you brought your reusable container?).

Simple enough - paper, just like meat was wrapped in decades ago (in fact, for some odd reason, ShopRite when prepacking at the deli still wraps in that type of paper, then puts it in a standard deli bag - if you order it and they slice it then, no paper).

[buckguy]

Regarding theft and numbers under the umbrella of "crime".

I often question myself on the legitimacy of my opinions and beliefs (weird, but I have always been like that). I try to uncover that which would change my position.

I have googled voraciously about retail theft (larceny theft, shoplifting, ORC) and other crimes stats.

What is being reported is maligned with errors, manipulations and click bait strategy.

There are areas like Texas, Kansas, Alaska, Florida with significantly worse numbers than California, New York, Illinois.

The words you use to search is paramount: RATE of, Per capita, by State or City or Nationally. The most important being RATE (percentage)!

Obviously California will be top in Total Dollars............being the most populous State in the Nation. But per capita RATE, it is not even in the top 10.

All this gleaned from Federal, State, City, Law Enforcement, Independant statistics institutions, BIG Loss Prevention entities, etc., etc.

Just sayin...........................................

The anecdotes get recycled through a particular media ecosystem so they become taken as normative information. And, of course, no context. The Tenderloin has been shrinking for decades, but you've always been able to find some version of tragedy or outrageous behavior there or in Skid Row (LA or Seattle version), etc. There's always been organized shoplifting--I remember it from my time working in retail and my much older brother's time before that. There also are things that never make the news like stuff falling off a truck---a childhood friend's father was always getting great deals on stuff like this that was sold in his workplace parking lot.

The worst places for crime have long been in the Southeast plus Texas, but it's never been news. The drop in crime in DC is such that instead of being called for jury duty every year (as was in the case in the 90s), I just got my first summons in 6 or 7 years, but you wouldn't know that from much of the media.

[veteran+]

Regarding theft and numbers under the umbrella of "crime".

I often question myself on the legitimacy of my opinions and beliefs (weird, but I have always been like that). I try to uncover that which would change my position.

I have googled voraciously about retail theft (larceny theft, shoplifting, ORC) and other crimes stats.

What is being reported is maligned with errors, manipulations and click bait strategy.

There are areas like Texas, Kansas, Alaska, Florida with significantly worse numbers than California, New York, Illinois.

The words you use to search is paramount: RATE of, Per capita, by State or City or Nationally. The most important being RATE (percentage)!

Obviously California will be top in Total Dollars............being the most populous State in the Nation. But per capita RATE, it is not even in the top 10.

All this gleaned from Federal, State, City, Law Enforcement, Independant statistics institutions, BIG Loss Prevention entities, etc., etc.

Just sayin...........................................

The anecdotes get recycled through a particular media ecosystem so they become taken as normative information. And, of course, no context. The Tenderloin has been shrinking for decades, but you've always been able to find some version of tragedy or outrageous behavior there or in Skid Row (LA or Seattle version), etc. There's always been organized shoplifting--I remember it from my time working in retail and my much older brother's time before that. There also are things that never make the news like stuff falling off a truck---a childhood friend's father was always getting great deals on stuff like this that was sold in his workplace parking lot.

The worst places for crime have long been in the Southeast plus Texas, but it's never been news. The drop in crime in DC is such that instead of being called for jury duty every year (as was in the case in the 90s), I just got my first summons in 6 or 7 years, but you wouldn't know that from much of the media.

EXACTLY!

The "increases" in certain crimes in other areas that are not NY, CA, IL, et., are not covered the same way