Retail Watchers

ClownLoach wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2023, 2:20 pm

veteran+ wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2023, 9:07 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑August 2nd, 2023, 8:43 pm

I don't believe Giant was actually a "giant" format. If I remember correctly at least two of them are in use today, Long Beach (Traffic Circle) and Garden Grove (now Shun Fat, still has some remnants of old Ralphs decor). Both are about 40K which was much larger than the traditional Ralphs that operated at that time.

"The Giant by Ralphs In the mid 1980s it seemed that club stores were really big. The Ralphs Grocery Company tried to capitalize on their own version of a club store (without using a club card) with their chain, The Giant. The trouble was the prices were no different than Ralphs. They were just big, fancy (as well as EXPENSIVE) stores. They soon went out of business."

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-A ... -10-11.pdf

PAGE 48

Well Garden Grove and Long Beach Traffic Circle both at one point had Ralphs Giant signs on them. Later on Garden Grove had a Ralphs Superstore sign but the Superstore went away shortly after. They had a strange facade that looked like a tubular structure with material stretched over it like a canvas. Almost like the original Pavilions had tubular structures around the building (it must have been popular in the 80s). They also had warehouse style ceilings which were not popular yet at that time. But neither store is anywhere close to 80-100K in size. And they failed which adds to my point that mainline grocers with East Coast size buildings don't work out in SoCal.

I was not refuting your point.

But I believe the problem is NOT the consumers.

pseudo3d wrote: ↑August 4th, 2023, 6:51 am Wegmans' 80k square feet store isn't really that large. Wegmans already dedicates a lot of space to perishables and seating, their center-store I've heard really isn't that great in terms of selection, and the extra space to accommodate crowds and two-story features (escalator wells, etc.) means that it's probably even functionally smaller.

I understand what you want—a full grocery store with quality perishables with a robust general merchandise department...but they're few and far between. The closest to that is maybe Fred Meyer. It isn't specifically your region per se.

Aren't most Wegmans in the low to mid 100s though? I thought 80K is like a small format for them. The ones I've visited in New Jersey all appear to be at least 125K.

veteran+ wrote: ↑August 4th, 2023, 8:42 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2023, 2:20 pm

veteran+ wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2023, 9:07 am

"The Giant by Ralphs In the mid 1980s it seemed that club stores were really big. The Ralphs Grocery Company tried to capitalize on their own version of a club store (without using a club card) with their chain, The Giant. The trouble was the prices were no different than Ralphs. They were just big, fancy (as well as EXPENSIVE) stores. They soon went out of business."

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-A ... -10-11.pdf

PAGE 48

Well Garden Grove and Long Beach Traffic Circle both at one point had Ralphs Giant signs on them. Later on Garden Grove had a Ralphs Superstore sign but the Superstore went away shortly after. They had a strange facade that looked like a tubular structure with material stretched over it like a canvas. Almost like the original Pavilions had tubular structures around the building (it must have been popular in the 80s). They also had warehouse style ceilings which were not popular yet at that time. But neither store is anywhere close to 80-100K in size. And they failed which adds to my point that mainline grocers with East Coast size buildings don't work out in SoCal.

I was not refuting your point.

But I believe the problem is NOT the consumers.

No, it's the cost of the land and the sales volume that would be needed to turn a profit. They would need what Wegmans, Shoprite, Market Basket and so on have - affordable prices across the board on food and general merchandise. For Wegmans I'd argue the food prices are higher but they charge comparable prices to Target or Walmart on home basics like laundry detergent so they get enough sales across the store and drive a high enough basket size to make the store profitable. The others seem to be balanced across the board. They can operate a store that generates a couple hundred million dollars a year. Our grocery stores just don't do that so they need to fit into a smaller box to justify the higher rent/utilities/ownership costs. A higher sales per square foot is needed here to break even.

But I still believe there is a very different economic model as well. The West Coast in general still spends more of their household income on their rent, mortgage, and other housing costs than anywhere else. We have smaller homes in general so we need less stuff to fill them, which works out because we have less money to spend. Our weather is less extreme so we need less clothing, again works out because we have less to spend. The need for more goods elsewhere justifies the need for more/larger retail. The East Coast is a completely different world, might as well be a different country in the Northeast.

So does that mean land prices in Los Angeles are more expensive than NYC?

veteran+ wrote: ↑August 4th, 2023, 3:59 pm So does that mean land prices in Los Angeles are more expensive than NYC?

Very different dynamic in NYC. You can do more with less. The extensive subway system moves people around with relative efficiency, allowing chains to operate far fewer units and square footage per capita. The population density gives far more customers as well, so if your business model usually is successful with say 250K customers within a 5 mile radius - you have more than five times as many customers in that radius which helps offset the fact the rents/site acquisition costs are probably triple a normal location. What causes problems there are operating conditions and costs. Some stores do not operate well in a higher volume due to their procedures, logistics etc. and if they can't figure out how to adapt then they won't be able to stop the flow of red ink. A well run retailer with procedures that scale up well can thrive there, Trader Joe's is an example with a relatively modest size store in Chelsea that has 30+ checkout stands (!!!). Somehow they figured out how to operate in a model that probably needs to get a delivery every hour instead of every day, and they somehow can get the goods to the shelves in time so they can keep bringing in the bucks. But if a retailer thinks they can just build their same prototype in a basement and just add a couple extra checkout stands they've got a rude awakening coming. I worked for a company that did this and it was a very costly exercise that ultimately resulted in the closure of nearly every store in the market despite the fact that several were the highest volume stores in the chain... They couldn't keep the shelves full or the labor cost under control and ran at a loss. The costs increased faster than comp sales... And shrink faster than costs... It was a painful exercise in what could have been a spectacular market where customers had begged us to open for decades.

ClownLoach wrote: ↑August 4th, 2023, 1:23 pm

pseudo3d wrote: ↑August 4th, 2023, 6:51 am Wegmans' 80k square feet store isn't really that large. Wegmans already dedicates a lot of space to perishables and seating, their center-store I've heard really isn't that great in terms of selection, and the extra space to accommodate crowds and two-story features (escalator wells, etc.) means that it's probably even functionally smaller.

I understand what you want—a full grocery store with quality perishables with a robust general merchandise department...but they're few and far between. The closest to that is maybe Fred Meyer. It isn't specifically your region per se.

Aren't most Wegmans in the low to mid 100s though? I thought 80K is like a small format for them. The ones I've visited in New Jersey all appear to be at least 125K.

The 80K format has a much smaller dining area, almost no GM, no pharmacy, and slightly trimmed down fresh foods, deli, bakery, produce, etc. in terms of space but largely the same selection. The beer/wine selection, at least in DC has a good selection including craft beer brands that are difficult to find elsewhere---they don't feature the DC brews which are pretty forgettable. They sell more in the way of expensive items than Safeway, Giant, etc., but the shelf pricing for normal stuff is comparable or lower. I was just there earlier this week.

The new Rockville, MD store will be 80K and part of a condo/mixed use project in an area with increasingly dense retail and residential development that has been a retail hub since the late 50s, so it's different from many of their usual suburban locations, but not unlike established retail corridors in other suburbs. The much larger one in Gaitherburg is part of a small scale "lifestyle" development that is on cheap (for Montgomery County) land and more of a destination on its own, although there is a power center with Wal Mart and Target a short distance away.

ClownLoach wrote: ↑August 4th, 2023, 1:23 pm

pseudo3d wrote: ↑August 4th, 2023, 6:51 am Wegmans' 80k square feet store isn't really that large. Wegmans already dedicates a lot of space to perishables and seating, their center-store I've heard really isn't that great in terms of selection, and the extra space to accommodate crowds and two-story features (escalator wells, etc.) means that it's probably even functionally smaller.

I understand what you want—a full grocery store with quality perishables with a robust general merchandise department...but they're few and far between. The closest to that is maybe Fred Meyer. It isn't specifically your region per se.

Aren't most Wegmans in the low to mid 100s though? I thought 80K is like a small format for them. The ones I've visited in New Jersey all appear to be at least 125K.

The 80K format has a much smaller dining area, almost no GM, no pharmacy, and slightly trimmed down fresh foods, deli, bakery, produce, etc. in terms of space but largely the same selection. The beer/wine selection, at least in DC has a good selection including craft beer brands that are difficult to find elsewhere---they don't feature the DC brews which are pretty forgettable. They sell more in the way of expensive items than Safeway, Giant, etc., but the shelf pricing for normal stuff is comparable or lower. I was just there earlier this week.

The new Rockville, MD store will be 80K and part of a condo/mixed use project in an area with increasingly dense retail and residential development that has been a retail hub since the late 50s, so it's different from many of their usual suburban locations, but not unlike established retail corridors in other suburbs. The much larger one in Gaitherburg is part of a small scale "lifestyle" development that is on cheap (for Montgomery County) land and more of a destination on its own, although there is a power center with Wal Mart and Target a short distance away.

If anyone's interested in checking out the new Astor Place Wegmans, here's my post from today...
https://www.marketreportblog.com/2023/1 ... ce_18.html

Looks a little like Loblaw's Maple Leaf Gardens store in Toronto. Great effort, Wegmans'.

marketreportblog wrote: ↑October 18th, 2023, 3:49 pm If anyone's interested in checking out the new Astor Place Wegmans, here's my post from today...
https://www.marketreportblog.com/2023/1 ... ce_18.html

This looks fantastic and it is really good to see the prepared food options back with such great effort. I hope that is successful and they will look at re-expanding those options in some of the stores that were built with fewer such options.

Also interesting to see 40 self checkouts and only 10 staffed checkouts. Not quite what I'd expect from Wegman's. Did I read that right?