Westfield San Francisco Centre

[veteran+]

I am also going to take further issue with the "Miami" has issues comment because Miami makes it easier for everyone to do things and does not have the various junk fees and bloated costs that everyday people are subject to in San Francisco:

1. Miami does not have a junk "health care fee" that is added to restaurant bills
2. Miami does not have a junk 25 cent bag fee added at all retail stores, fast food restaurants, to go orders at normal restaurants (but the fee is mysteriously waived per their city regulation if you are dining in and have extra food from your dine in order to take home)
3. Public transit in Miami is nowhere near as good but they have the basics covered. You can do the 10 mile train connection from Miami Airport to Brickell (their quasi financial district in Miami) for $2.25. In San Francisco, a BART train from SFO Airport to Union Square is also about 10 miles and runs $10.50 (there is now a 50 cent paper ticket surcharge if you don't have a "Clipper" card which of course is impossible to get for some reason, some excuse about supply chain, never heard any other supply chain having issues getting plastic cards besides this BART outfit).
4. Miami does not hit you with a 1 cent per ounce "sugary beverage tax" if you order a beverage that has sugar in it.

Sure you can say you avoid these fees but it is all a hassle. It is a hassle for the business to collect and remit whatever has to be remitted, a hassle for the user, etc.

I also wonder if the skyrocketing cost of BART causes fewer people to go into San Francisco. This BART system is the bumpiest, dirtiest, most uncrowded, most expensive train system I've experienced anywhere. Sure the subways in NYC and Chicago may be subjectively dirtier but they have more extreme weather and are also elbow to elbow people so of course they'll be dirtier. They may want to look into that and why this BART system is so much more expensive than public transportation systems elsewhere. I bet if they got BART fares into/out of San Francisco down to $3 they'd suddenly have more foot traffic than ever despite the various issues.

Respectfully, you do not know Miami and it shows in the way you have cherry picked certain things (and even those are not totally accurate).

Sorry if I am being too direct.

It seems to be the zeitgeist in this venue to constantly eviscerate San Francisco (ad nauseum) and much of it is hyperbolized, but to paint Miami and by defacto Florida as "something better"?

No way Jose! I'm not even including political in this.

I don't think criticism toward San Francisco is leveled unfairly. A bunch of retailers packing up and leaving in a relatively short timespan is not part of some grand conspiracy.

I never suggested a conspiracy. But it is clear that California is tops for click bait via hyperbole, including deceptive photography and filming. I often visit some of the places that are photographed and it is clear what "they" are doing.

It is complicated but one thing stands out: Businesses refusing to take any responsibility for their part.

[storewanderer]

I never suggested a conspiracy. But it is clear that California is tops for click bait via hyperbole, including deceptive photography and filming. I often visit some of the places that are photographed and it is clear what "they" are doing.

It is complicated but one thing stands out: Businesses refusing to take any responsibility for their part.

As I've been saying for months now the situation in San Francisco, and ONLY SAN FRANCISCO, is very unique. And when I say ONLY SAN FRANCISCO, I mean that, not California as a whole. Sure some of San Francisco's issues may apply to California on a whole on a smaller scale but like you and others point out, there are many other places with the same problems, and those issues not tank them the way these problems are tanking San Francisco.

And this continues to play out with the additional closures and real estate/mortgage walk aways from hotels/Westfield announced so far this month. Last week was pretty quiet so maybe the situation is going to stabilize now...

As far as visiting places photographed, I suggest visiting at multiple times during the day to see the real picture. When I am out looking at stores in tough areas I can tell you that the situation, appearance, and conditions of surrounding neighborhoods (again not referring to CA here- could be anywhere) can be radically different between morning/early afternoon and late night. As if you are at an entirely different place.

[Alpha8472]

The mall has been stripped of the Westfield name. There are huge areas of abandoned stores. The Nordstrom is empty and the Emporium Dome area is deserted.

This mall is a dead mall now. It was totally different even back in 2019. Back then business was booming and tech workers and tourists packed the mall.

[marshd1000]

The mall has been stripped of the Westfield name. There are huge areas of abandoned stores. The Nordstrom is empty and the Emporium Dome area is deserted.

This mall is a dead mall now. It was totally different even back in 2019. Back then business was booming and tech workers and tourists packed the mall.

I vacationed in San Francisco in 2019! I knew they had problems with homelessness then! However, I somehow avoided the problem areas! It was a very beautiful and enjoyable city! While I believe that every mall has been affected to some extent by the retail apocalypse caused by online shopping, San Francisco Centre seemed to be doing good business. Not too many empty spaces! That was a beautiful mall with a busy Nordstrom! I’m glad I saw Downtown San Francisco then.

I find it ironic that a small city like Spokane can have an open Nordstrom in its downtown and a reasonably patronized Riverpark Square Mall and that San Francisco, which is so affluent is the opposite! Not looking for further discussion just an observation!

[buckguy]

The mall has been stripped of the Westfield name. There are huge areas of abandoned stores. The Nordstrom is empty and the Emporium Dome area is deserted.

This mall is a dead mall now. It was totally different even back in 2019. Back then business was booming and tech workers and tourists packed the mall.

I vacationed in San Francisco in 2019! I knew they had problems with homelessness then! However, I somehow avoided the problem areas! It was a very beautiful and enjoyable city! While I believe that every mall has been affected to some extent by the retail apocalypse caused by online shopping, San Francisco Centre seemed to be doing good business. Not too many empty spaces! That was a beautiful mall with a busy Nordstrom! I’m glad I saw Downtown San Francisco then.

I find it ironic that a small city like Spokane can have an open Nordstrom in its downtown and a reasonably patronized Riverpark Square Mall and that San Francisco, which is so affluent is the opposite! Not looking for further discussion just an observation!

Nice to have something resembling first person observation, but the Westfield mall is a short distance from the Tenderloin which has been the center of homelessness and related issues for decades---so it would not be difficult to notice even by the mall. The BART station also should have been a tipoff. I've been around there dozens of time.

The San Francisco Nordstrom was > 300K sf, almost the size of the flagship in Seattle and probably the largest branch, more than twice as big as most suburban branches and much larger than anything anyone has built in the last 30 years. It takes a lot of volume to keep a store like that open. They have legacy stores in the Pacific NW that aren't very big and I would imagine that they don't carry the highest end merchandise. They've closed a number of these. Even their run of the mill branches elsewhere seem to have different classes of merchandise---Tysons Corner in the DC area carries higher end lines than Pentagon City.

[Brian Lutz]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/business ... index.html

American Eagle Outfitters has filed a lawsuit against Westfield, saying that their failure too maintain a safe environment inside the mall constitutes a breach of the lease agreement, leading to their employees being robbed, assaulted and even shot at.

[Alpha8472]

This mall has been in the news in the past few weeks as the few remaining big brand stores leave. There is low foot traffic and few shoppers.

The mall is now valued at $290 million, which is down from $1.2 billion in 2016. J. Crew, Hollister, The Lego Store, Adidas, Nordstrom, Century Theatres, etc. have closed.

I remember the mall being packed with shoppers and office workers in 2019. Things have totally changed.

Bloomingdale's is still open 11 to 7 on weekdays, 11 to 8 on Saturdays, and 11 to 6 on Sundays.

The closure of the movie theater really hurt the mall. At least, you had some shoppers from the theater. There is no reason to go to this mall except for Bloomingdale's.

[storewanderer]

Redevelopment will have to occur soon.

The problem now for what is left in the mall is distribution of stores (too many dead zones or dead floors). Not unlike many other malls all over suburbs that have died, other than this mall having so many floors. It is almost like the stuff that wants to stay there needs to all move to the ground floor. Many of the stores put a decent amount of money into their spaces and given the questionable future of the mall I am not sure if anyone wants to spend money remodeling a space elsewhere in the mall to move into.

[pseudo3d]

Redevelopment will have to occur soon.

The problem now for what is left in the mall is distribution of stores (too many dead zones or dead floors). Not unlike many other malls all over suburbs that have died, other than this mall having so many floors. It is almost like the stuff that wants to stay there needs to all move to the ground floor. Many of the stores put a decent amount of money into their spaces and given the questionable future of the mall I am not sure if anyone wants to spend money remodeling a space elsewhere in the mall to move into.

San Francisco Centre's problems mirror a lot of the issues that downtown malls faced before. We've seen it before with a lot of 1980s-built centers. It takes advantage of a historic department store (or two) downtown, adds one or two more, and builds a dense center with lots of natural light and mid-to-upscale stores.

It's a balancing act because it requires suburban spenders to come downtown instead of their local malls, and relying on foot traffic for the rest. But once you start losing the downtown foot traffic crowd and the mall gets a bad reputation for crime, it's all downhill from there...and then that accelerates if a suburban mall expands and gets the same sorts of stores.

[storewanderer]

Redevelopment will have to occur soon.

The problem now for what is left in the mall is distribution of stores (too many dead zones or dead floors). Not unlike many other malls all over suburbs that have died, other than this mall having so many floors. It is almost like the stuff that wants to stay there needs to all move to the ground floor. Many of the stores put a decent amount of money into their spaces and given the questionable future of the mall I am not sure if anyone wants to spend money remodeling a space elsewhere in the mall to move into.

San Francisco Centre's problems mirror a lot of the issues that downtown malls faced before. We've seen it before with a lot of 1980s-built centers. It takes advantage of a historic department store (or two) downtown, adds one or two more, and builds a dense center with lots of natural light and mid-to-upscale stores.

It's a balancing act because it requires suburban spenders to come downtown instead of their local malls, and relying on foot traffic for the rest. But once you start losing the downtown foot traffic crowd and the mall gets a bad reputation for crime, it's all downhill from there...and then that accelerates if a suburban mall expands and gets the same sorts of stores.

In the case of this mall, it was easy to get suburban spenders, tourists, office workers, etc. to come because in many cases this mall had "only store in the region" for various brands/chains. It wasn't just your "average mall." Also the location was killer- completely central. Mass transit connected to basement. Just so ideal.