Mercado Gonzalez Northgate opening, "Wegmans" or "Bristol Farms" of Hispanic grocery stores

[ClownLoach]

The common denominator in all of these ethnic operators is they have... LABOR. Their stores (especially the hispanic ones) are VERY well staffed. The big chains have been figuring out how to cut labor and fresh offers for years (well except Stater) and look at where it has gotten them. Hundreds of store closures. Meanwhile these ethnic operators with a focus on service, numerous staffed service counters open late into the night, and tons of staffing continue to expand and get better and better at what they do.

Isn't part of the reason they have more labor is that they are non union. There have been previous union operators that tried to do upscale ethnic supermarkets, but the labor is too expensive.

No, in fact many are paying higher than the union wage at the big 3 chains. The reason they have so much staffing is because they are getting several times more sales per square foot out of the stores because of the steep decline of the SoCal big 3. Remember that we already established that Ralphs has lost 75% of their sales volume in less than 20 years for example, so union or not you'd expect to see at least a 75% reduction in staffing. That Ralphs closes, Northgate opens and immediately does 4 times the sales volume because of the increasing reality that they better understand the SoCal customer.

You're talking about potentially with benefits a 15 to 20% possible difference in wages between entry level union vs nonunion on lower paying retailers. But then the ethnic operators do 4X the sales volume per square foot, and on top of that they don't have any debt to pay interest on while Kroger and Albertsons have preposterous and absurd levels of debt.

The debt free retailer aspect alone will ensure triple the payroll spend when you look at the staffing levels of debt free chains...

The true #1 problem out there is how much Wall Street has hanging over these stores that have been forced to borrow billions of dollars in high interest debt from the banks, only to be forced to spend it on rebuying their own stocks. This is why you see so many retail liquidations, then go to say Canada and you've got a Toys R Us open next to a Pier 1 and a Bombay Company and on and on and on... And they're a higher regulated and higher paid and higher taxed economy...

[storewanderer]

The common denominator in all of these ethnic operators is they have... LABOR. Their stores (especially the hispanic ones) are VERY well staffed. The big chains have been figuring out how to cut labor and fresh offers for years (well except Stater) and look at where it has gotten them. Hundreds of store closures. Meanwhile these ethnic operators with a focus on service, numerous staffed service counters open late into the night, and tons of staffing continue to expand and get better and better at what they do.

Isn't part of the reason they have more labor is that they are non union. There have been previous union operators that tried to do upscale ethnic supermarkets, but the labor is too expensive.

Was the labor too expensive for those union operators or was it that they were just inept and completely stuck in their ways of doing things and kept walking over dollars to save pennies and then ended up scaling back all the programs they tried to add in the process?

Do these ethnic chains really pay less than the unionized grocers? Why do people work there if they pay less? These ethnic chains seem to be better staffed than the unionized chains down in SoCal... fewer vacant positions. Other thing is some of these ethnic chains require you speak Spanish so this eliminates a giant pool of potential employees yet that doesn't seem to matter and they still are very well staffed. If they are paying less this doesn't make sense.

I'm still not convinced Ralphs has lost 75% of its sales volume (maybe if you count NorCal then it might be very close).

[ClownLoach]

The common denominator in all of these ethnic operators is they have... LABOR. Their stores (especially the hispanic ones) are VERY well staffed. The big chains have been figuring out how to cut labor and fresh offers for years (well except Stater) and look at where it has gotten them. Hundreds of store closures. Meanwhile these ethnic operators with a focus on service, numerous staffed service counters open late into the night, and tons of staffing continue to expand and get better and better at what they do.

Isn't part of the reason they have more labor is that they are non union. There have been previous union operators that tried to do upscale ethnic supermarkets, but the labor is too expensive.

Was the labor too expensive for those union operators or was it that they were just inept and completely stuck in their ways of doing things and kept walking over dollars to save pennies and then ended up scaling back all the programs they tried to add in the process?

Do these ethnic chains really pay less than the unionized grocers? Why do people work there if they pay less? These ethnic chains seem to be better staffed than the unionized chains down in SoCal... fewer vacant positions. Other thing is some of these ethnic chains require you speak Spanish so this eliminates a giant pool of potential employees yet that doesn't seem to matter and they still are very well staffed. If they are paying less this doesn't make sense.

I'm still not convinced Ralphs has lost 75% of its sales volume (maybe if you count NorCal then it might be very close).

I calculated the Ralphs 75% loss on another thread. Half the stores are gone, and the sales volume was listed on multiple sources that did appear reliable. When you factored in the comparison of a dollar at the time of the big 3 strike versus now, Ralphs had indeed lost 75% and Stater Bros is actually the largest conventional grocery store chain now in Southern California specifically. Largest is Safeway/Albertsons statewide of course.

I think the ineptitude is one of the primary reasons for walking back the programs from where they used to be, increasing labor cost is another, lack of sales growth, and the increasing debt as explained earlier.

Some of the ethnic chains do not pay well (El Super, Cardenas aka Apollo) and they do appear to be suffering from staffing shortages; El Super always has big hiring signs up and very low standards, while Cardenas is following the Apollo slash and burn model with the removal of most checkouts at my local store replacing with Self Checkout and seemingly few people outside of deli/prepared food. Cardenas still has far more people working the deli with food service counter than a Ralphs or Albertsons though. Northgate and Vallarta apparently pay well, but the bigger thing is they also create many opportunities to be promoted from within to a supervisor or manager position which is a huge incentive. Their corporate offices are in SoCal and the stores are constantly growing with new locations opening so one can still make a career there while the big 3 run skeleton crews and are stagnant with no growth at all over two decades thus zero chance at career advancement. It's beyond wage, it's the opportunity. Being fully bilingual is a requirement though.

[storewanderer]

Isn't part of the reason they have more labor is that they are non union. There have been previous union operators that tried to do upscale ethnic supermarkets, but the labor is too expensive.

Was the labor too expensive for those union operators or was it that they were just inept and completely stuck in their ways of doing things and kept walking over dollars to save pennies and then ended up scaling back all the programs they tried to add in the process?

Do these ethnic chains really pay less than the unionized grocers? Why do people work there if they pay less? These ethnic chains seem to be better staffed than the unionized chains down in SoCal... fewer vacant positions. Other thing is some of these ethnic chains require you speak Spanish so this eliminates a giant pool of potential employees yet that doesn't seem to matter and they still are very well staffed. If they are paying less this doesn't make sense.

I'm still not convinced Ralphs has lost 75% of its sales volume (maybe if you count NorCal then it might be very close).

I calculated the Ralphs 75% loss on another thread. Half the stores are gone, and the sales volume was listed on multiple sources that did appear reliable. When you factored in the comparison of a dollar at the time of the big 3 strike versus now, Ralphs had indeed lost 75% and Stater Bros is actually the largest conventional grocery store chain now in Southern California specifically. Largest is Safeway/Albertsons statewide of course.

I think the ineptitude is one of the primary reasons for walking back the programs from where they used to be, increasing labor cost is another, lack of sales growth, and the increasing debt as explained earlier.

Some of the ethnic chains do not pay well (El Super, Cardenas aka Apollo) and they do appear to be suffering from staffing shortages; El Super always has big hiring signs up and very low standards, while Cardenas is following the Apollo slash and burn model with the removal of most checkouts at my local store replacing with Self Checkout and seemingly few people outside of deli/prepared food. Cardenas still has far more people working the deli with food service counter than a Ralphs or Albertsons though. Northgate and Vallarta apparently pay well, but the bigger thing is they also create many opportunities to be promoted from within to a supervisor or manager position which is a huge incentive. Their corporate offices are in SoCal and the stores are constantly growing with new locations opening so one can still make a career there while the big 3 run skeleton crews and are stagnant with no growth at all over two decades thus zero chance at career advancement. It's beyond wage, it's the opportunity. Being fully bilingual is a requirement though.

I went to Cardenas by the PHX Airport (sign still says Los Altos Ranch, bags say Los Altos Ranch, but receipts, etc. say Cardenas) and that store is a sad shadow of what it was as Pro's Ranch or the Northgate-run Los Altos Ranch. It is interesting as these former Los Altos/Pro's Ranch units in Las Vegas got rebranded (new signs) to Cardena's years ago so I'm not sure what the hold up is in Phoenix. Volume is clearly nothing close to what it once was either. Yes they do have self checkout but only 4 self checkouts and 5 or so regular checkouts (maybe had 2 open when I was there, lines everywhere). Prepared food was the only perimeter area with significant staffing. Bakery and tortilla were not staffed at all (late afternoon). Meat had a couple employees but is a giant case and had a LOT of product out. Really the store felt like what I'd expect if Safeway were trying to run a hispanic format. Maybe the shelf pricing was a little lower than Safeway would be but hardly anything was on special so overall total likely higher there than Safeway due to lack of specials/poor specials.

I've never had good experiences with Vallarta. I like them even less than Cardenas. I haven't been into one since before COVID. Maybe I need to give them another chance. El Super you get what you pay for, I hate the atmosphere but the cheap produce and not great rotation (makes it easy to find stuff that is ready to eat immediately) will draw me in.

I'm ignoring inflation when I think of the volume Ralphs has lost and given that I think food prices are up 40% since early 2020 (I know the media says it is way less), I guess you can't ignore it. Also I do wonder are food prices in SoCal up as much as they are in other places? That I am not so sure of.

[ClownLoach]

Was the labor too expensive for those union operators or was it that they were just inept and completely stuck in their ways of doing things and kept walking over dollars to save pennies and then ended up scaling back all the programs they tried to add in the process?

Do these ethnic chains really pay less than the unionized grocers? Why do people work there if they pay less? These ethnic chains seem to be better staffed than the unionized chains down in SoCal... fewer vacant positions. Other thing is some of these ethnic chains require you speak Spanish so this eliminates a giant pool of potential employees yet that doesn't seem to matter and they still are very well staffed. If they are paying less this doesn't make sense.

I'm still not convinced Ralphs has lost 75% of its sales volume (maybe if you count NorCal then it might be very close).

I calculated the Ralphs 75% loss on another thread. Half the stores are gone, and the sales volume was listed on multiple sources that did appear reliable. When you factored in the comparison of a dollar at the time of the big 3 strike versus now, Ralphs had indeed lost 75% and Stater Bros is actually the largest conventional grocery store chain now in Southern California specifically. Largest is Safeway/Albertsons statewide of course.

I think the ineptitude is one of the primary reasons for walking back the programs from where they used to be, increasing labor cost is another, lack of sales growth, and the increasing debt as explained earlier.

Some of the ethnic chains do not pay well (El Super, Cardenas aka Apollo) and they do appear to be suffering from staffing shortages; El Super always has big hiring signs up and very low standards, while Cardenas is following the Apollo slash and burn model with the removal of most checkouts at my local store replacing with Self Checkout and seemingly few people outside of deli/prepared food. Cardenas still has far more people working the deli with food service counter than a Ralphs or Albertsons though. Northgate and Vallarta apparently pay well, but the bigger thing is they also create many opportunities to be promoted from within to a supervisor or manager position which is a huge incentive. Their corporate offices are in SoCal and the stores are constantly growing with new locations opening so one can still make a career there while the big 3 run skeleton crews and are stagnant with no growth at all over two decades thus zero chance at career advancement. It's beyond wage, it's the opportunity. Being fully bilingual is a requirement though.

I went to Cardenas by the PHX Airport (sign still says Los Altos Ranch, bags say Los Altos Ranch, but receipts, etc. say Cardenas) and that store is a sad shadow of what it was as Pro's Ranch or the Northgate-run Los Altos Ranch. It is interesting as these former Los Altos/Pro's Ranch units in Las Vegas got rebranded (new signs) to Cardena's years ago so I'm not sure what the hold up is in Phoenix. Volume is clearly nothing close to what it once was either. Yes they do have self checkout but only 4 self checkouts and 5 or so regular checkouts (maybe had 2 open when I was there, lines everywhere). Prepared food was the only perimeter area with significant staffing. Bakery and tortilla were not staffed at all (late afternoon). Meat had a couple employees but is a giant case and had a LOT of product out. Really the store felt like what I'd expect if Safeway were trying to run a hispanic format. Maybe the shelf pricing was a little lower than Safeway would be but hardly anything was on special so overall total likely higher there than Safeway due to lack of specials/poor specials.

I've never had good experiences with Vallarta. I like them even less than Cardenas. I haven't been into one since before COVID. Maybe I need to give them another chance. El Super you get what you pay for, I hate the atmosphere but the cheap produce and not great rotation (makes it easy to find stuff that is ready to eat immediately) will draw me in.

I'm ignoring inflation when I think of the volume Ralphs has lost and given that I think food prices are up 40% since early 2020 (I know the media says it is way less), I guess you can't ignore it. Also I do wonder are food prices in SoCal up as much as they are in other places? That I am not so sure of.

I should have mentioned that Vallarta is a mixed bag. Their new stores are very, very nice. Old, not so much. Only two new stores I can think of offhand are Anaheim and Carson, a former Ralphs and I believe Albertsons proper.

For all of these chains, Northgate, Vallarta, H-Mart, and 99 Ranch the age of the store is very relevant. Older stores definitely don't have the amenities or environment, and I don't think the older stores always have the best fixtures specifically refrigeration, deli and meat cases etc. which as we know makes or breaks a store these days as new coolers do a much better job of maintaining freshness.

[ClownLoach]

Here is an article with a better variety of pictures, although some were clearly taken before the store had opened for business so the fixtures are empty. Still reminds me of a fusion of Wegmans with the new "experiential" Bristol Farms concept in Irvine (which despite early struggles seems to be doing very well now that people have figured it out). Nobody takes pictures of the regular aisle half of the store. I didn't get there yesterday but I'll be sure to stop by some time next week.

I've heard some comparisons to H-Mart, but I would describe their operation as a grocery store that leases more space than it needs, so they rent out a strip of the store to individual stalls haphazardly. They're not planned out in any way other than separated from the store itself, and little thought seems to go into their selection. This all has purpose and intent as the different vendors were purposefully integrated into the store and it's design.

https://la.eater.com/2023/11/17/2396558 ... an-grocery

[storewanderer]

Looking at the photos I have a few concerns:
1. Spacing on the various food counters - the way this is laid out I feel like a lot of counters will be hidden. There is not a clear line of sight where you can see all of the counters. Or even a fraction of them, at the same time, it appears.

2. Spacing around the store- it feels like there is too much space around meat/produce and not enough product.

3. It feels like with all of the excess space this will be a tough place to walk into and buy a cartfull of groceries to cook with. Tough due to not clear lines of sight to see around, spacing between departments, and what appears to be a strange lack of product.

I was expecting something more like those Pro's Ranch things but with the food counters added. Maybe it flows better in person.

This in photos reminds me of Save Mart's "Lucky California" concept as it was intended before the company was sold on the one remodel in Daly City that was done by Piccinini's granddaughter when she was running the chain, but with the food counters added. We see where that is- store is still there but never took off. The new build one in Dublin closed.

[veteran+]

Here is an article with a better variety of pictures, although some were clearly taken before the store had opened for business so the fixtures are empty. Still reminds me of a fusion of Wegmans with the new "experiential" Bristol Farms concept in Irvine (which despite early struggles seems to be doing very well now that people have figured it out). Nobody takes pictures of the regular aisle half of the store. I didn't get there yesterday but I'll be sure to stop by some time next week.

I've heard some comparisons to H-Mart, but I would describe their operation as a grocery store that leases more space than it needs, so they rent out a strip of the store to individual stalls haphazardly. They're not planned out in any way other than separated from the store itself, and little thought seems to go into their selection. This all has purpose and intent as the different vendors were purposefully integrated into the store and it's design.

https://la.eater.com/2023/11/17/2396558 ... an-grocery

That looks much nicer!

Thanks!

Where is the ORGANIC section?

Just kidding

[veteran+]

Looking at the photos I have a few concerns:
1. Spacing on the various food counters - the way this is laid out I feel like a lot of counters will be hidden. There is not a clear line of sight where you can see all of the counters. Or even a fraction of them, at the same time, it appears.

2. Spacing around the store- it feels like there is too much space around meat/produce and not enough product.

3. It feels like with all of the excess space this will be a tough place to walk into and buy a cartfull of groceries to cook with. Tough due to not clear lines of sight to see around, spacing between departments, and what appears to be a strange lack of product.

I was expecting something more like those Pro's Ranch things but with the food counters added. Maybe it flows better in person.

This in photos reminds me of Save Mart's "Lucky California" concept as it was intended before the company was sold on the one remodel in Daly City that was done by Piccinini's granddaughter when she was running the chain, but with the food counters added. We see where that is- store is still there but never took off. The new build one in Dublin closed.

Good points because I see the same.

It is an outdoor market (hispanic farmer's market) concept inside a large building (Yay................no flies?).

Now this type of large footprint would take a very long time to shop. So many beautiful distractions to navigate?

[ClownLoach]

Looking at the photos I have a few concerns:
1. Spacing on the various food counters - the way this is laid out I feel like a lot of counters will be hidden. There is not a clear line of sight where you can see all of the counters. Or even a fraction of them, at the same time, it appears.

2. Spacing around the store- it feels like there is too much space around meat/produce and not enough product.

3. It feels like with all of the excess space this will be a tough place to walk into and buy a cartfull of groceries to cook with. Tough due to not clear lines of sight to see around, spacing between departments, and what appears to be a strange lack of product.

I was expecting something more like those Pro's Ranch things but with the food counters added. Maybe it flows better in person.

This in photos reminds me of Save Mart's "Lucky California" concept as it was intended before the company was sold on the one remodel in Daly City that was done by Piccinini's granddaughter when she was running the chain, but with the food counters added. We see where that is- store is still there but never took off. The new build one in Dublin closed.

It's really hard to tell what exactly the layout is like from the pictures. Trying to piece it together I believe it's the Wegmans style split with the large hall of food serving counters, and then another large hall of produce surrounded by meat, seafood and more. So like a quarter of the store prepared foods like Wegmans, another quarter with produce meat bakery etc, and then the other half is aisles. Really can't figure out the spacing at all because some pictures make it look like everything is crammed together, while other pictures look like there is ample and even excessive space. Dying to go see it but can't get there till late next week.