Target Paid Membership Program?

[storewanderer]

Menard is strong competition and it is unfortunate they have not expanded further west.

[ClownLoach]

Home Depot and Lowe's have decimated the nursery industry, and now they have horrible quality at horrible prices since they have a duopoly in many areas. There are still some chains left like Armstrong in SoCal but they have skewed to more premium quality plants that don't really compete with the other two. HD has pushed small cell 6 pack bedding packs where the plants and soil are half the size of normal so the plants are easily stunted and never grow to full size, while Lowe's has tried to eliminate the standard "6 pack" of bedding plants and replace everything with 4 inch rounds or squares so one plant costs half what Armstrong charges for a normal six pack. The two have become the most expensive options which is nuts.

That's not at all what I've experienced with Home Depot in the Upper Midwest. They still sell most of their bedding annuals in 8-packs of "normal" size, or at least there has been no shrinkage of the individual plant cells. Although the base price for an 8-pack has experienced inflation in the past few years, last year, IIRC, it was still a decent enough $3.78.

Of course, this is in Menards territory, where Home Depot and Lowe's are kept on their toes to compete. In previous years, Home Depot has even offered 11% off rebates of Home Depot purchases within Menards' territory, matching the highly-popular 11% mail-in rebate program Menards generally runs throughout the spring and summer. Home Depot still has their rebate website up (https://www.homedepotrebates11percent.com) but has yet to offer any this year even though Menards started up their rebates weeks ago.

They probably don't have contract growers up there and are buying from good local wholesalers. I'll take a picture of the new tiny 6 packs HD has contracted for, which include their own branded labeling. They more than double the number of packs per flat so you get tiny little root bound plants, or plants barely larger than seedlings so they get eaten by snails and other pests in one bite. I will count but I believe they've packed 16 6 packs into what is a industry standard flat that would hold 6 normal 6 packs. Lowe's has eliminated traditional 6 packs here and is trying to push either 4 inch rounds at minimum $3 a plant or 12 cell quarter flats for $14.98 and up. Both are highway robbery and have sent me to seek out independent nurseries that still buy normal product. Having said that, in SoCal many of the independent growers were bought out by AGC (parent of the local Armstrong chain) so now the independent nurseries all have Armstrong product, sometimes even with customized price tags printed by Armstrong (they'll say for example Green Thumb Nursery where it would normally say Armstrong but otherwise the pot tag is identical). And before anyone tries to say California water savings, the new 4 inch rounds use half the soil of the traditional squares, and the high density mini 6 packs dry out daily so the stores have to use more water on these plants than traditional industry standard sizes.

Home Depot and Lowe's also sell vegetable plants from a pay by scan vendor called Bonnie Plants and they're insane expensive. Who in their right mind would plant ONE lettuce plant for $5.98 which will produce ONE head of lettuce? Unless you go harvest like three leaves at a time you're never going to get enough off that one plant versus just buying fresh when you need it from the grocery store. $5.98 for one basil plant. $5.98 for one tomato plant. I could go on but obviously once people realize they've been ripped off they won't buy again.

What irritates me is that these inflated prices push people to leave the gardening hobby and that is bad for everyone.

[veteran+]

Every plant I have ever bought at HD was diseased.

I had to return every single one. Every time I want to give them a chance again the same thing happens.

[jamcool]

Home Depot and Lowe's have decimated the nursery industry, and now they have horrible quality at horrible prices since they have a duopoly in many areas. There are still some chains left like Armstrong in SoCal but they have skewed to more premium quality plants that don't really compete with the other two. HD has pushed small cell 6 pack bedding packs where the plants and soil are half the size of normal so the plants are easily stunted and never grow to full size, while Lowe's has tried to eliminate the standard "6 pack" of bedding plants and replace everything with 4 inch rounds or squares so one plant costs half what Armstrong charges for a normal six pack. The two have become the most expensive options which is nuts.

That's not at all what I've experienced with Home Depot in the Upper Midwest. They still sell most of their bedding annuals in 8-packs of "normal" size, or at least there has been no shrinkage of the individual plant cells. Although the base price for an 8-pack has experienced inflation in the past few years, last year, IIRC, it was still a decent enough $3.78.

Of course, this is in Menards territory, where Home Depot and Lowe's are kept on their toes to compete. In previous years, Home Depot has even offered 11% off rebates of Home Depot purchases within Menards' territory, matching the highly-popular 11% mail-in rebate program Menards generally runs throughout the spring and summer. Home Depot still has their rebate website up (https://www.homedepotrebates11percent.com) but has yet to offer any this year even though Menards started up their rebates weeks ago.

They probably don't have contract growers up there and are buying from good local wholesalers. I'll take a picture of the new tiny 6 packs HD has contracted for, which include their own branded labeling. They more than double the number of packs per flat so you get tiny little root bound plants, or plants barely larger than seedlings so they get eaten by snails and other pests in one bite. I will count but I believe they've packed 16 6 packs into what is a industry standard flat that would hold 6 normal 6 packs. Lowe's has eliminated traditional 6 packs here and is trying to push either 4 inch rounds at minimum $3 a plant or 12 cell quarter flats for $14.98 and up. Both are highway robbery and have sent me to seek out independent nurseries that still buy normal product. Having said that, in SoCal many of the independent growers were bought out by AGC (parent of the local Armstrong chain) so now the independent nurseries all have Armstrong product, sometimes even with customized price tags printed by Armstrong (they'll say for example Green Thumb Nursery where it would normally say Armstrong but otherwise the pot tag is identical). And before anyone tries to say California water savings, the new 4 inch rounds use half the soil of the traditional squares, and the high density mini 6 packs dry out daily so the stores have to use more water on these plants than traditional industry standard sizes.

Home Depot and Lowe's also sell vegetable plants from a pay by scan vendor called Bonnie Plants and they're insane expensive. Who in their right mind would plant ONE lettuce plant for $5.98 which will produce ONE head of lettuce? Unless you go harvest like three leaves at a time you're never going to get enough off that one plant versus just buying fresh when you need it from the grocery store. $5.98 for one basil plant. $5.98 for one tomato plant. I could go on but obviously once people realize they've been ripped off they won't buy again.

What irritates me is that these inflated prices push people to leave the gardening hobby and that is bad for everyone.

I know Moon Valley out of AZ has several locations in SoCal. They tend to be more oriented to the landscape industry but they do sell plants/ garden supplies to the homeowner.
to the homeowner.

[bayford]

They probably don't have contract growers up there and are buying from good local wholesalers. I'll take a picture of the new tiny 6 packs HD has contracted for, which include their own branded labeling. They more than double the number of packs per flat so you get tiny little root bound plants, or plants barely larger than seedlings so they get eaten by snails and other pests in one bite. I will count but I believe they've packed 16 6 packs into what is a industry standard flat that would hold 6 normal 6 packs. Lowe's has eliminated traditional 6 packs here and is trying to push either 4 inch rounds at minimum $3 a plant or 12 cell quarter flats for $14.98 and up. Both are highway robbery and have sent me to seek out independent nurseries that still buy normal product. Having said that, in SoCal many of the independent growers were bought out by AGC (parent of the local Armstrong chain) so now the independent nurseries all have Armstrong product, sometimes even with customized price tags printed by Armstrong (they'll say for example Green Thumb Nursery where it would normally say Armstrong but otherwise the pot tag is identical). And before anyone tries to say California water savings, the new 4 inch rounds use half the soil of the traditional squares, and the high density mini 6 packs dry out daily so the stores have to use more water on these plants than traditional industry standard sizes.

Home Depot and Lowe's also sell vegetable plants from a pay by scan vendor called Bonnie Plants and they're insane expensive. Who in their right mind would plant ONE lettuce plant for $5.98 which will produce ONE head of lettuce? Unless you go harvest like three leaves at a time you're never going to get enough off that one plant versus just buying fresh when you need it from the grocery store. $5.98 for one basil plant. $5.98 for one tomato plant. I could go on but obviously once people realize they've been ripped off they won't buy again.

What irritates me is that these inflated prices push people to leave the gardening hobby and that is bad for everyone.

Playing around with the Home Depot website, the 8-packs I am familiar with seem to be sold throughout most of the Midwest (excluding Illinois, St. Louis, and parts of Wisconsin) and east into the Mid-Atlantic. The price has increased 5% year-over-year to $3.98/pack this year. The eastern part of this region is supplied by a Bell Nursery, https://bellnursery.com/, which says they are a wholesaler growing exclusively for Home Depot. The western part is supplied by a Natural Beauty Growers, https://www.natbeauty.com/, described in job listings and such as an independent vendor supplying Home Depot non-exclusively. However, the plants they supply to Home Depot contain price and plant care tags specific to Home Depot.

I agree with the assessment of Bonnie Plants. They've always been rather pricey, but lately have gotten outrageous. Unfortunately, they are a nearly inescapable vendor, monopolizing shelf space also at Walmart along with numerous regional chains.

[ClownLoach]

Every plant I have ever bought at HD was diseased.

I had to return every single one. Every time I want to give them a chance again the same thing happens.

Makes perfect sense. Stressed plants are like stressed people, they are more subject to diseases.

[storewanderer]

Every plant I have ever bought at HD was diseased.

I had to return every single one. Every time I want to give them a chance again the same thing happens.

Makes perfect sense. Stressed plants are like stressed people, they are more subject to diseases.

Home Depot's nursery program has gotten progressively worse over the years. It is clear they do not allocate enough labor to care for the plants. I am not sure store management even remembers they have a nursery on site. I guess they are an okay place to go buy a bag of dirt, they seem to have employees moving pallets of dirt around all day.

Most markets have solid independent nurseries. You will pay to go to them. You will probably pay dearly.

Only shot with places like Home Depot or Wal Mart is if you get there right when the plant delivery is occurring and basically take stuff the moment it got off the truck.

[ClownLoach]

Every plant I have ever bought at HD was diseased.

I had to return every single one. Every time I want to give them a chance again the same thing happens.

Makes perfect sense. Stressed plants are like stressed people, they are more subject to diseases.

Home Depot's nursery program has gotten progressively worse over the years. It is clear they do not allocate enough labor to care for the plants. I am not sure store management even remembers they have a nursery on site. I guess they are an okay place to go buy a bag of dirt, they seem to have employees moving pallets of dirt around all day.

Most markets have solid independent nurseries. You will pay to go to them. You will probably pay dearly.

Only shot with places like Home Depot or Wal Mart is if you get there right when the plant delivery is occurring and basically take stuff the moment it got off the truck.

Actually, the solid independent nurseries are cheaper if you know where to find them. First, you have to be willing to enter a property/building that looks like it is 70+ years old because it usually is. But past that there are some real gems in SoCal with quality and prices that blow away the big box stores.

There is a small chain called Green Thumb Nursery with about half a dozen locations scattered around SoCal. I visit two, San Marcos and Laguna Hills. Both are shabby looking buildings from the outside but when you walk out to the nursery you'll be blown away by the quality and the prices.

There is "Lakewood Nursery" on the border of Cerritos and Cypress near the cemetery that has been owned and operated by a local Japanese family for 70 years. They are proud to have the largest selection of roses available anywhere in Southern California, and their quality and prices on them are unbeatable. I don't trust roses sold bare root in January even though they are usually dirt cheap, they also are prone to mold and rot plus unfortunately I own several that were acquired at the big stores but were not the prestigious varietals named on the label. So if I want a rose I want to see it growing and blooming in a minimum 5 gallon pot so I can verify it is the correct varietal. Nobody beats this Lakewood nursery price on these roses and I suspect that they also grow them for other nurseries in their back lot. Their bedding plant selection isn't huge but still present and well cared for, and they acknowledge that business has been taken by Home Depot/Lowe's but they make up for it with a superior selection of landscape plants, shrubs and trees.

In Seattle there is a dazzling independent called Swansons Nursery celebrating its 100th anniversary this year and it is probably one of the biggest landmarks of the west coast nursery business. Multiple large greenhouses are necessary because of the weather, and it is spectacularly merchandised with phenomenal selection and constant sales and promotions that pack in so many customers they have multiple employees assigned to guide customers to park their cars like Disneyland.

And finally I will mention a place that is truly the Disneyland of garden centers, Newport Beach legend Roger's Gardens. Now this in many ways is like the Neiman Marcus or Bloomingdales of nurseries and home decor shops, but they have surprisingly good value on plants when you compare the basics to Home Depot/Lowe's. Unfortunately they did recently raise the prices of bedding packs by a dollar across the board, but for the gardener who knows their plants they offer many perennials in quart or even six pack size which the big boxes would only offer in a gallon size pot. So if you're willing to wait a few months for a plant that actually has the time to establish itself and grow (versus instant gratification of planting at full size and blooming already) then you can find amazing deals with large cell 6 packs for $5.99 of these perennials that would be sold for $10.99 and up for one plant at the big boxes. They have major events such as Tomato Mania where they offer hundreds of varieties that fill up the "back 40" of the property and once again they are selling varieties you could only grow from seed because they aren't sold anywhere else and still a dollar each cheaper than the Bonnie garbage from the warehouses. And during Halloween and Christmas they have massive, incredible displays of wildly exotic and expensive decor and ornaments that people flock there to see. I hear of customers there discussing that they flew in to visit.

So for the most part there are great values in nurseries and garden centers throughout SoCal and other markets but what they usually have in common is that they are established businesses that have been present for decades and usually own the land they sit on. Unfortunately if they don't own it then you see prices that are very high which usually stem from paying market rents like the Armstrong chain in SoCal, although they really try to offset their rents by owning their own growing properties so they don't have to buy plants from wholesalers and thus are more vertically integrated than other chains (plus they are a wholesaler to others including both Green Thumb and Roger's Gardens which I mentioned).

Unfortunately Home Depot and Lowe's both want to sell you plants that are either way too small so they won't succeed, or way too big (and unnecessarily expensive).

[storewanderer]

The other difficulty is in some cases these independent nurseries are not open very convenient hours for the "casual" customer who wants to buy plants in the evening or on a Sunday.

Grocery Outlet has 2 stores that go heavy on nursery in my area blocking off part of the parking lot. Last year they got plants from a supplier in Colorado, great looking plants. Two different loads from that supplier. This year they have a couple suppliers one is a CA supplier and some of it looks how you describe the Home Depot/Lowes stuff (haven't looked at their plants this year yet); then the rest is a lot of that Bonnie stuff and they are priced over $5 for a little pint type of vegetable. Yet I still see customers buying at both of this operator's locations.

[ClownLoach]

The other difficulty is in some cases these independent nurseries are not open very convenient hours for the "casual" customer who wants to buy plants in the evening or on a Sunday.

Grocery Outlet has 2 stores that go heavy on nursery in my area blocking off part of the parking lot. Last year they got plants from a supplier in Colorado, great looking plants. Two different loads from that supplier. This year they have a couple suppliers one is a CA supplier and some of it looks how you describe the Home Depot/Lowes stuff (haven't looked at their plants this year yet); then the rest is a lot of that Bonnie stuff and they are priced over $5 for a little pint type of vegetable. Yet I still see customers buying at both of this operator's locations.

I have one Grocery Outlet that did the same but fails to adequately water and destroys their inventory in a day or less in our windy valley here. California also requires a separate business license for nursery goods but I wonder how well that is enforced if at all.

I have seen sporadic "tests" at Home Depot and Lowe's in the last 6 months where the Garden Center is not open at night. I don't mean the gates to the parking lot by the register, I mean the doors are entirely closed and it isn't open. Lowe's tested this briefly in Menifee, and I saw Home Depot in Oceanside did as well. In that Oceanside store they posted closed signs but the auto doors weren't turned off so I took it upon myself to walk right out there and look at the roses that had just arrived and I was accosted within about a minute by an employee who rudely demanded to know what I was there for (I innocently said roses and pretended I didn't see the sign). He told me that the nursery is closed at dusk now and I just responded "Really? The door opened as I was walking up?" and he said that someone forgot to turn it off but they're "doing a test for the company to improve safety at night" and asked if I could basically hurry up or come back tomorrow. I asked if the other Oceanside store was closed at night and he didn't know (it wasn't).

Unfortunately I think they are figuring out that the nursery at night is probably an ideal place for shoplifters to unpackage and hide merchandise or remove security tags, not to mention a easy place for a robber to hide until closing. These are good neighborhoods where these tests are occurring and I do not believe they have more than moderate shrink. I wonder how long before they potentially curtail all nursery operations at night. I would imagine that shrink being facilitated by easy hiding outdoors is negating the minimal sales that occur out there.