Smart & Final Extra

[BillyGr]

Of interest, a S&F that opened up in Garden Groove shut its doors just a few months later. Ouch.

I guess maybe they couldn't get their Groove on?

[storewanderer]

Of interest, a S&F that opened up in Garden Groove shut its doors just a few months later. Ouch.

I guess maybe they couldn't get their Groove on?

Not even with the loud hip hop music. Unfortunate.

[submariner]

That was my local. Went into part of a former Kmart. There's a Walmart Neighborhood Market in the same center which provided competition. Sad, I much preferred S&FE over Walmart (though the Ralphs down the street i my normal go-to store)

[arizonaguy]

I notice lately they run 10% off coupons in their ad. That is atypical for a supposed "everyday low price" format.

I have never been impressed with the Extra format. Quality is not the same as when Smart & Final was catering to businesses/restaurants, as you point out, way downhill across the board. I do not think it is priced particularly well. I find the store unappealing. I find the mix of items to be poor.

It will be interesting to see what store count is in another few years.

I still like the Cash & Carry format, though. That is basically the "old" Smart & Final format, but better with a larger mix.

I read that they want to sell the Cash & Carry format. See the linked article:

https://www.reuters.com/article/smartfi ... SL8N28G4RL

[storewanderer]

I notice lately they run 10% off coupons in their ad. That is atypical for a supposed "everyday low price" format.

I have never been impressed with the Extra format. Quality is not the same as when Smart & Final was catering to businesses/restaurants, as you point out, way downhill across the board. I do not think it is priced particularly well. I find the store unappealing. I find the mix of items to be poor.

It will be interesting to see what store count is in another few years.

I still like the Cash & Carry format, though. That is basically the "old" Smart & Final format, but better with a larger mix.

I read that they want to sell the Cash & Carry format. See the linked article:

https://www.reuters.com/article/smartfi ... SL8N28G4RL

So maybe earlier in 2019, Smart & Final rebranded Cash & Carry to "Smart Foodservice." This involved new signage in-store and outside the stores.

Also I recall reading earlier in 2019 they were looking to significantly expand the Cash & Carry division. Again I wonder what happened.

Previously the signage on old stores just said Cash & Carry outside, on newer stores it said both Cash & Carry then in smaller lettering Smart Foodservice. Most interior signage did say Smart Foodservice if anything.

So now a number of months after rebranding the thing to "Smart Foodservice" they are trying to sell it? This is another example of how stupid this company is and how it seems to make odd knee jerk type decisions on everything. Similar to how they operated in Denver for, what was it, like six months then pulled the plug? Or pulled development on the Henry's in Boise that was practically complete right before they announced they needed to sell Henry's. Something is inherently wrong inside this company and has been for years. I guess this is what happens when you bounce between multiple private equity owners and have some public stock ownership sprinkled along the way. Maybe it isn't really the company's fault.

I would suspect whoever buys Smart Foodservice will rebrand it anyway (as they should, get rid of the baggage related to Smart & Final). Loblaws operates a little food service operation up in Canada similar to Smart Foodservice simply branded as "Warehouse Club." I doubt they would bite on this but it would be nice if they did. I am assuming it will be GFS or some other established player who isn't present much in the NW.

Also Smart Foodservice, despite selling mostly Smart & Final branded private label goods, does pull all of its goods from Unified (Supervalu, UNFI...). So any potential sale is going to either come with that supply agreement or whoever buys it will need their own logistics set up.

[Bagels]

I've never been in one of the conversion stores before. Only original build stores. I think they could get some dollars selling those back to Albertsons and the neighborhoods would be happier with a legitimate full service store again. The lack of major remodeling makes me think that may be the plan.

Kroger could acquire some of the stores and expand the Food 4 Less banner if they wanted to. That's basically what the Extra format, run by Hirz who used to run F4L is in my view. A ghetto style store with loud hip hop music, long lines, messy shelves, and not so great prices.

Their original plan to expand Henrys when they owned that made a lot more sense. Henrys was a well run operation and very successful (ran higher volumes than Sprouts and had more and better perishables). Of course they had to sell that good asset to an inferior buyer after losing their shirt on that failed expansion into Denver with what was ironically the same format as Extra is.

I think Albertsons reacquired the stores it was interested in. I would be surprised if Albertsons DIDN'T divest dozens of stores this decade, especially in SoCal, where they have twice as many stores as Ralphs but similar market share. Amazon's entry into the traditional grocery store market will likely defer this process, similar to how Walmart's announcement, in the late 2000s, that it planned to open 300+ grocery stores in SoCal by 2020 briefly paused Albertsons/Vons/Ralphs closures during the recession (off-topic, but it's interesting that while Walmart abandoned that plan in Greater Los Angeles, they went from having no market share in San Diego County to almost overtaking the combined Albertons/Vons as #1). The Albertsons guy now running Stater Bros. called the Albertsons-Vons divestures a "missed opportunity," so many Stater Bros. would be interested.

And I'd be surprised if Kroger was interested in expanding F4L, especially in proximity of Ralphs. Today, F4L carries largely the same product assortment as Ralphs; in the past, they've carried their own private label brands in different sizes. Even the produce, with few exceptions, is the same. In the stores I've been into, the biggest differences are the inclusion of Hispanic groceries (which dominates the meat counter) and the distribution of products (more emphasis on the "cheap" stuff -- e.g. large quantities of Xtra and Sun Laundry Detergents, and much less Tide). But from reading these forums, it appears that there's a non-Hispanic format.

F4L is much cheaper than Ralph's. I really don't think Kroger would want F4L to cannibalize sales of flagship Kroger stores, especially given that most of S&F aren't in Hispanic areas. Just for fun, here's a comparison of F4L and Ralphs pricing I did, right before Christmas, for some items I was bringing into work. Some of the items were on sale, but the health & beauty items weren't (notice the whopping difference).

Kroger Whipping Cream, 1 pt. - $3.99 / $1.99
Kroger Maraschino Cherries, 10 oz. - $3.49 / $1.79
Kroger Shredded Coconut, 14 oz. - $2.49 / $1.49
Kroger Fruit Cocktail, 15 oz. - $1.29 / $.089
Kroger Mandarin Oranges, 15 oz. - $1.29 / $0.89
Economy Paper Plates 100 ct. - $1.97 / $1.69
Economy Napkins 120 ct. - $0.87 / $0.69 (*F4L was 160 ct.)
Kroger Assorted Cookies, 12 ct. - $5.99 / $3.00 (*F4L was 18 ct.)
Kroger Nasal Spray - $5.99 / $1.99
Kroger ES Acetaminophen, 150 ct. - $8.29 / $2.49
Kroger Tissues, 160. ct - $1.29 / $0.99

That was my local. Went into part of a former Kmart. There's a Walmart Neighborhood Market in the same center which provided competition. Sad, I much preferred S&FE over Walmart (though the Ralphs down the street i my normal go-to store)

Did business really seem that bad? News articles report they spent over $10M building it out, and it didn't last very long. Seems like business would've had to be extremely poor...

[storewanderer]

What is with Ralphs pricing on HBA? They had that same "way out of range" pricing back when they were in NorCal too. Is it theft they are trying to cover?

I notice Vons pricing on the HBA category is similarly "way out of range." I don't get it.

[steps]

What is with Ralphs pricing on HBA? They had that same "way out of range" pricing back when they were in NorCal too. Is it theft they are trying to cover?

I notice Vons pricing on the HBA category is similarly "way out of range." I don't get it.

I feel Ralphs and Vons think of themselves as "upmarket" since the majority of stores are in well off areas and expect people will pay the price.

As for S&F Extra, they are trying to be a traditional super market with out actually being a super market. None of them have a service deli which brings in a lot of business. The S&F Extra in Torrance that took over a huge Albertsons is losing sales from not having a service deli and other "service" departments (small service meat and sub-par hot bakery). This store in literally in a prime location with high rises, business parks, homes and apartments surrounding, all in walking distance. This store should draw much, much more traffic than it does.

S&F Needs to take a step back and re-evaluate what they want and NEED the Extra format to be. I don't see a reason to go the an Extra store or any S&F for that matter, the prices aren't much different from Ralphs or Vons and selection is lacking even in the larger stores.

[storewanderer]

What is with Ralphs pricing on HBA? They had that same "way out of range" pricing back when they were in NorCal too. Is it theft they are trying to cover?

I notice Vons pricing on the HBA category is similarly "way out of range." I don't get it.

I feel Ralphs and Vons think of themselves as "upmarket" since the majority of stores are in well off areas and expect people will pay the price.

As for S&F Extra, they are trying to be a traditional super market with out actually being a super market. None of them have a service deli which brings in a lot of business. The S&F Extra in Torrance that took over a huge Albertsons is losing sales from not having a service deli and other "service" departments (small service meat and sub-par hot bakery). This store in literally in a prime location with high rises, business parks, homes and apartments surrounding, all in walking distance. This store should draw much, much more traffic than it does.

S&F Needs to take a step back and re-evaluate what they want and NEED the Extra format to be. I don't see a reason to go the an Extra store or any S&F for that matter, the prices aren't much different from Ralphs or Vons and selection is lacking even in the larger stores.

Extra is the S&F format. Do they even have any stores anymore that are not badged Extra? Even the little 14k square foot store in Bishop has been badged Extra for years now. All the ones I know of have converted to the Extra format...

This is my opinion whenever I go into the S&F Extra (either in Reno or Lake Tahoe). I go into this F4L style operation, in the case of Reno the parking lot is a mess (McDonalds on the outparcel has security, to give an idea what this complex is like, and Staples next to it has locked bathrooms) and the store itself is a mess too. The quality of the products seems sub par. The prices are barely lower than the Save Mart on the next block and way higher than a WinCo, Wal Mart, or Smiths in a better part of town. The atmosphere of the store is so downscale due to the loud hip hop music, messy shelves and poor condition of the perishables offered. It was one of the first S&F Extra to open and they actually did some pretty major renovations a few years ago (moved meat to the back wall and it is basically the same size as a regular supermarket meat case now, added bulk foods, expanded produce) and immediately after the renovations the store was looking pretty good. Since then it has just gone way way downhill. Checkout is terrible with long lines and a poor set up.

[Bagels]

As for S&F Extra, they are trying to be a traditional super market with out actually being a super market. None of them have a service deli which brings in a lot of business. The S&F Extra in Torrance that took over a huge Albertsons is losing sales from not having a service deli and other "service" departments (small service meat and sub-par hot bakery). This store in literally in a prime location with high rises, business parks, homes and apartments surrounding, all in walking distance. This store should draw much, much more traffic than it does.

S&F Needs to take a step back and re-evaluate what they want and NEED the Extra format to be. I don't see a reason to go the an Extra store or any S&F for that matter, the prices aren't much different from Ralphs or Vons and selection is lacking even in the larger stores.

S&F did trial a service deli. It's not wholly surprising they abandoned the effort. They still carry most of the items sold in a traditional service deli, including hot items, packaged sandwiches, packaged deli salads, etc. The packaged stuff is the same, and generally carries a longer shelf life. Walmart appears headed in the same direction... I've been in a handful of Supercenters/Neighboor Markets that removed their full-service deli, and the most recent new build Supercenter I was in did not have one either.

You and storewanderer have really hit S&F's biggest problem -- on fresh goods, its pricing is better than Ralphs and Albertsons/Vons, and similar to Walmart/Target ... but people don't seem to be aware of that. Here's a price comparison I did (for another project, prices were effective in mid November) between nearby S&F, Ralphs, Albertsons and Walmart:

Item - S&F / Ralphs / Albertsons / Walmart
Bananas (per lb.) - .69 / .59 / .69 / .59
Red Delicious Apples (per lb.) - .98 / 1.29 / 1.49 / 1.28
Navel Oranges (per lb.) - .99 / 1.49 / 1.99 / (sold for .88 each, about two oranges per lb.)
Green Bell Peppers (each) - .59 / .99 / .99 / .66
Yellow Onions, 3 lb. bag - 1.49 / 2.99 / 3.49 / 1.98
Large Tomatoes (per lb.) - 1.99 / 2.49 / 2.49 / .98
Romaine Lettuce (each) - .99 / 1.69 / 1.69 / 1.48
Russet Potatoes (5 lb. bag) - 1.99 / 2.99 / 3.49 / 2.49 (*S&F was selling a 10 lb. bag for $1)
Carrots (1 lb.) - .99 / .99 / .99 / .88
80/20 Ground Beef (per lb. in a 3 lb. tube) - 3.49 / 4.49 / 4.30 / 3.88 (sold in 1 lb. tube at Walmart)

This was for an office event, so it's not a cherry picked listing. Not scientific, but it shows that S&F is much more competitive than most people would be aware. Keep in mind that produce is sold in lots that are priced for taste, color, texture and size. Walmart does not buy the same quality lots that S&F, Kroger & Albertsons do.

Extra is the S&F format. Do they even have any stores anymore that are not badged Extra? Even the little 14k square foot store in Bishop has been badged Extra for years now. All the ones I know of have converted to the Extra format...

This is my opinion whenever I go into the S&F Extra (either in Reno or Lake Tahoe). I go into this F4L style operation, in the case of Reno the parking lot is a mess (McDonalds on the outparcel has security, to give an idea what this complex is like, and Staples next to it has locked bathrooms) and the store itself is a mess too. The quality of the products seems sub par. The prices are barely lower than the Save Mart on the next block and way higher than a WinCo, Wal Mart, or Smiths in a better part of town. The atmosphere of the store is so downscale due to the loud hip hop music, messy shelves and poor condition of the perishables offered. It was one of the first S&F Extra to open and they actually did some pretty major renovations a few years ago (moved meat to the back wall and it is basically the same size as a regular supermarket meat case now, added bulk foods, expanded produce) and immediately after the renovations the store was looking pretty good. Since then it has just gone way way downhill. Checkout is terrible with long lines and a poor set up.

There's still numerous S&F not branded as Extra! I recall reading an Times article not long ago in which they said their goal was to convert or relocate every location to the Extra! format, but would be unable to fully do so given the space limitations and higher rents (expanding/relocating).

This summer, I stopped at a S&F that wasn't branded as Extra. I don't recall the exact location, but it was near Brentwood. I honestly don't know what the difference between that location and the Extra format is. Sure, it was tiny, but they stuffed every bit of space in the store to the point that it was difficult to navigate. They didn't have hot deli items, that's the only thing I noticed.

I think I was the only shopper in the store, and it was during the weekday evening rush. Thankfully, because the parking lot was just as tiny; I stopped there only because traffic wasn't moving and it was the first place I could stop at to use the restroom.