Pavilions?

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rwsandiego
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Re: Pavilions?

Post by rwsandiego »

storewanderer wrote: September 10th, 2020, 11:03 pm
Bluelightspecial wrote: September 10th, 2020, 10:19 pm Before Safeway bought Vons back in the 90's, Vons was planning to expand Pavilions into San Diego including most of the stores you listed. When Safeway came in they nixed the expansion.
There was a store on I think Balboa in San Diego that was built as a Pavilions but then opened as a Lucky and operated as a Lucky (largely with Pavilions layout but with Lucky decor... so there was nothing upscale about it) until Supervalu replaced it with a new store. That was a late new store for Supervalu (it had the interior after the Premium Fresh and Healthy interior) and after its brief time as Haggen ended up going to Ranch 99.
If you are thinking about the large Lucky on Balboa and the 805 freeway, I had heard the same thing. Then a friend who is a San Diego native told me that it was actually a Gemco. Sure enough, there's a 1973 Gemco ad in the Escondido Times-Advocate listing that store. A 1988 article states that the former Gemco would be redeveloped by Lucky into an "Advantage" supermarket. The Lukcy had 60K square feet of the Balboa space and the rest was leased to Sportmart, which became Sports Authority later on.

FWIW, the "Memco" store (Gemco's midwestern cousin) in Niles, IL became a large Eagle Food Center. That did not last too long (there were four Jewel stores and a Dominick's within a couple of miles of the Eagle - what were they thinking?) and became a Sports Authority.

Albertsons has converted a VONS in Carmel Valley to Pavilions. I think it opened in 2017 or 2018. While I agree Solana Beach could support a Pavilions, that VONS building seems a little beat up. If they did a conversion they would be wise to replace the building. Mission Hills would also be a great fit for Pavilions.

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by storewanderer »

JimKarras wrote: September 11th, 2020, 3:12 pm The Vons in La Mesa used to be a Gemco and once had a Panda Express inside. This store in the late 90s looked similar to the layout of a Pavilions of the day.

I think the area would be good for a conversation of this store to a Pavilions.
Not sure if this in La Mesa is still open but I see a Vons there with a Panda Express and a Pizza Hut inside. I assume the Pizza Hut is a tenant space not like Panda that while it is a tenant, functions very much like a department of Vons, uses Vons cash register, and has the employees under the UFCW Agreement.

The Westminster Pavilions (I think it was converted to Vons years ago now) had a Round Table Pizza inside (it was a tenant- but was a little kiosk type thing near one of the doors). Was it common for Vons to sublease space in the store to pizza franchises?

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by storewanderer »

rwsandiego wrote: September 11th, 2020, 11:30 pm
If you are thinking about the large Lucky on Balboa and the 805 freeway, I had heard the same thing. Then a friend who is a San Diego native told me that it was actually a Gemco. Sure enough, there's a 1973 Gemco ad in the Escondido Times-Advocate listing that store. A 1988 article states that the former Gemco would be redeveloped by Lucky into an "Advantage" supermarket.
I wonder what the story there was. I also wonder what "Advantage" was. The ASC discount format developed in the early or mid 90's (self bagging) was called Price Advantage then sued by Price Club and briefly changed to Food Price Advantage before finally changing to Super Saver by the mid 90's.

I wonder if it is possible this store went to "Advantage" very briefly after Gemco, tanked hard, then they spun it to Pavilions and Pavilions finished it out and then didn't occupy it so Lucky took it back over. Recall Lucky was looking for money back then to buy up old LKS stock shares to prevent the hostile takeover attempts. When was Pavilions initially building stores? Wasn't it in the late 80's? I think the original Pavilions opened in 1985?

Lucky got a liquor license on 7715 Balboa on May 10, 1990. Gemco went under in 1987 I think. So something happened in this building between 1987 and 1990 that didn't involve Lucky. I think it was Pavilions finishing it out.

The layout of the Lucky was very much like a Pavilions... I wonder if Pavilions was going to take the space over then didn't and that is how it ended up as Lucky. Because the layout of that store... was a Pavilions layout.

Then there is this article about Pavilions being moved into San Diego in 1996 which never happened. I cannot find any evidence at this time that Pavilions was trying to move into San Diego in the late 80's. Also interesting it notes 59 of Vons 330 stores in 1996 were in San Diego. https://www.supermarketnews.com/archive ... -san-diego

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by veteran+ »

storewanderer wrote: September 11th, 2020, 11:31 pm
JimKarras wrote: September 11th, 2020, 3:12 pm The Vons in La Mesa used to be a Gemco and once had a Panda Express inside. This store in the late 90s looked similar to the layout of a Pavilions of the day.

I think the area would be good for a conversation of this store to a Pavilions.
Not sure if this in La Mesa is still open but I see a Vons there with a Panda Express and a Pizza Hut inside. I assume the Pizza Hut is a tenant space not like Panda that while it is a tenant, functions very much like a department of Vons, uses Vons cash register, and has the employees under the UFCW Agreement.

The Westminster Pavilions (I think it was converted to Vons years ago now) had a Round Table Pizza inside (it was a tenant- but was a little kiosk type thing near one of the doors). Was it common for Vons to sublease space in the store to pizza franchises?
The interior partners were usually Panda, Starbucks (or other coffee), Jamba Juice and sometimes a dry cleaners.

I don't remember but there was an issue with Jamba Juice and corporate and some Jambas were closing. Maybe theses pizza places took the Jamba spaces?

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: September 12th, 2020, 6:25 am
The interior partners were usually Panda, Starbucks (or other coffee), Jamba Juice and sometimes a dry cleaners.

I don't remember but there was an issue with Jamba Juice and corporate and some Jambas were closing. Maybe theses pizza places took the Jamba spaces?
I always wondered if part of the issue with Jamba was that Starbucks didn't want the competition as Starbucks moved into more frult-based drinks.

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by CalItalian »

storewanderer wrote: September 9th, 2020, 7:36 pm
CalItalian wrote: September 9th, 2020, 11:00 am Vons and Albertsons are outpacing Ralphs in sales gains in SoCal. I have no idea what you're talking about "trash". Vons/Albertsons has been much more aggressive on sales during the coronavirus than Kroger's Ralphs. Kroger has lost its way with so many idiotic ideas from recently backing off aggressive sales, delivery/pickup options different from store to store location that are so confusing to their scan, bag, go initiative that was a complete failure. Most anything Kroger introduces into Ralphs is a complete failure while Albertsons/Vons have been focused on retaining new and infrequent customers...and it's working.
Okay- it was harsh for me to describe the entire banner as "trash" - but I have not had great experiences with Vons over the years. It is pretty much always indifferent at best, often worse. And my experiences with their bakery/deli quality are terrible and I know it is all store prep issues since they are on the same programs as NorCal Safeway where I have had the same items of excellent quality.

Not real surprised about Ralphs. Kroger corporate's best function is at running a private label program and some centralized buying on commodity food items; they need to leave marketing, most fresh buying, and merchandising to the divisions. Oops, they "early retired" or transferred out almost everyone who had roots with the individual divisions and who knew the little things that made the divisions tick. Kroger does still have a long term Smiths person, running Smiths... but most of the divisions, that is not the case. Anyway, let's see who keeps the new customers who showed up during the pandemic. My money is on Stater and Wal Mart.
Walmart doesn't have enough supercenter stores in SoCal or California overall to make a serious impact (and many of those don't overlap with a nearby Vons, Albertsons or Ralphs). As we've seen, too many political headwinds, because of union influence, against them here. The lone new supercenter construction currently in California happens to be in my general area, a relocation coming in November 2020 to Lake Elsinore. I am sure that store will do great based on how well the closing regular Walmart does two exits south of the coming supercenter.

As for Stater Bros., the impact would be greater for Albertsons/Vons than Ralphs as Ralphs has less overlap with Staters. Yes, Stater Bros. does great especially considering how close their stores are to each other in many areas but the Albertsons/Vons I've been in lately have really been incredibly busy, which you can see, and that's what I am hearing from their associates.

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by klkla »

storewanderer wrote: September 11th, 2020, 11:50 pm I wonder what the story there was. I also wonder what "Advantage" was. The ASC discount format developed in the early or mid 90's (self bagging) was called Price Advantage then sued by Price Club and briefly changed to Food Price Advantage before finally changing to Super Saver by the mid 90's.

I wonder if it is possible this store went to "Advantage" very briefly after Gemco, tanked hard, then they spun it to Pavilions and Pavilions finished it out and then didn't occupy it so Lucky took it back over. Recall Lucky was looking for money back then to buy up old LKS stock shares to prevent the hostile takeover attempts. When was Pavilions initially building stores? Wasn't it in the late 80's? I think the original Pavilions opened in 1985?

Lucky got a liquor license on 7715 Balboa on May 10, 1990. Gemco went under in 1987 I think. So something happened in this building between 1987 and 1990 that didn't involve Lucky. I think it was Pavilions finishing it out.

The layout of the Lucky was very much like a Pavilions... I wonder if Pavilions was going to take the space over then didn't and that is how it ended up as Lucky. Because the layout of that store... was a Pavilions layout.

Then there is this article about Pavilions being moved into San Diego in 1996 which never happened. I cannot find any evidence at this time that Pavilions was trying to move into San Diego in the late 80's. Also interesting it notes 59 of Vons 330 stores in 1996 were in San Diego. https://www.supermarketnews.com/archive ... -san-diego
Advantage was a short-lived price impact format that was meant to complete with Food4Less and Pak'N Save.

A lot of stores developed by Vons in the 1985-90 period were intended to be Pavilions but then two things happened that changed the plan. In 1987 and 1988 they built four Pavilions that tanked and they realized the format wouldn't appeal to middle income and lower income shoppers (the original store in Garden Grove fizzled after a couple years, as well). They used two of them in Upland and Baldwin Park as register difference training stores after acquiring Safeway's Southern California Division. Neither store ever did more than $200,000 a week. And then there was the early problems with the Safeway deal. A dozen or so stores in wealthy neighborhoods were closed for a week and given cheap remodels and then reopened as Pavilions Place. Those stores did not have an increase in sales. In fact the number one Safeway in West Hollywood dropped in sales from around $770,000 a week to around $550,000 a week. It took years for it to recover.

The 1996 Pavilions expansion to San Diego was nixed by Safeway.

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by rwsandiego »

storewanderer wrote: September 11th, 2020, 11:50 pm
rwsandiego wrote: September 11th, 2020, 11:30 pm
If you are thinking about the large Lucky on Balboa and the 805 freeway, I had heard the same thing. Then a friend who is a San Diego native told me that it was actually a Gemco. Sure enough, there's a 1973 Gemco ad in the Escondido Times-Advocate listing that store. A 1988 article states that the former Gemco would be redeveloped by Lucky into an "Advantage" supermarket.
I wonder what the story there was. I also wonder what "Advantage" was. The ASC discount format developed in the early or mid 90's (self bagging) was called Price Advantage then sued by Price Club and briefly changed to Food Price Advantage before finally changing to Super Saver by the mid 90's.

I wonder if it is possible this store went to "Advantage" very briefly after Gemco, tanked hard, then they spun it to Pavilions and Pavilions finished it out and then didn't occupy it so Lucky took it back over. Recall Lucky was looking for money back then to buy up old LKS stock shares to prevent the hostile takeover attempts. When was Pavilions initially building stores? Wasn't it in the late 80's? I think the original Pavilions opened in 1985?

Lucky got a liquor license on 7715 Balboa on May 10, 1990. Gemco went under in 1987 I think. So something happened in this building between 1987 and 1990 that didn't involve Lucky. I think it was Pavilions finishing it out.

The layout of the Lucky was very much like a Pavilions... I wonder if Pavilions was going to take the space over then didn't and that is how it ended up as Lucky. Because the layout of that store... was a Pavilions layout.

Then there is this article about Pavilions being moved into San Diego in 1996 which never happened. I cannot find any evidence at this time that Pavilions was trying to move into San Diego in the late 80's. Also interesting it notes 59 of Vons 330 stores in 1996 were in San Diego. https://www.supermarketnews.com/archive ... -san-diego
Lucky converted it to an Advantage in April 1988 after it sat vacant for 18 months. They opened another Advantage in National City later in that year. When trying to defend itself against a labor dispute at the National City store, they claimed Advantage was a separate corporate entity that happened to be owned by Lucky. A Lucky ad dated December 5, 1990 in the Escondido Times-Advocate has "Lucky" at the bottom with a small "Lucky Advantage" logo right above it. The same dual logo appeared in ads through 1993.

It feels unlikely that this store was planned to be a Pavilions.

NOTE: I located the newspaper articles using Newspapers.com, which is behind a paywall. If I can locate them outside of a paywall I'll post links.

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by Bluelightspecial »

klkla wrote: September 12th, 2020, 12:09 pm
storewanderer wrote: September 11th, 2020, 11:50 pm I wonder what the story there was. I also wonder what "Advantage" was. The ASC discount format developed in the early or mid 90's (self bagging) was called Price Advantage then sued by Price Club and briefly changed to Food Price Advantage before finally changing to Super Saver by the mid 90's.

I wonder if it is possible this store went to "Advantage" very briefly after Gemco, tanked hard, then they spun it to Pavilions and Pavilions finished it out and then didn't occupy it so Lucky took it back over. Recall Lucky was looking for money back then to buy up old LKS stock shares to prevent the hostile takeover attempts. When was Pavilions initially building stores? Wasn't it in the late 80's? I think the original Pavilions opened in 1985?

Lucky got a liquor license on 7715 Balboa on May 10, 1990. Gemco went under in 1987 I think. So something happened in this building between 1987 and 1990 that didn't involve Lucky. I think it was Pavilions finishing it out.

The layout of the Lucky was very much like a Pavilions... I wonder if Pavilions was going to take the space over then didn't and that is how it ended up as Lucky. Because the layout of that store... was a Pavilions layout.

Then there is this article about Pavilions being moved into San Diego in 1996 which never happened. I cannot find any evidence at this time that Pavilions was trying to move into San Diego in the late 80's. Also interesting it notes 59 of Vons 330 stores in 1996 were in San Diego. https://www.supermarketnews.com/archive ... -san-diego
Advantage was a short-lived price impact format that was meant to complete with Food4Less and Pak'N Save.

A lot of stores developed by Vons in the 1985-90 period were intended to be Pavilions but then two things happened that changed the plan. In 1987 and 1988 they built four Pavilions that tanked and they realized the format wouldn't appeal to middle income and lower income shoppers (the original store in Garden Grove fizzled after a couple years, as well). They used two of them in Upland and Baldwin Park as register difference training stores after acquiring Safeway's Southern California Division. Neither store ever did more than $200,000 a week. And then there was the early problems with the Safeway deal. A dozen or so stores in wealthy neighborhoods were closed for a week and given cheap remodels and then reopened as Pavilions Place. Those stores did not have an increase in sales. In fact the number one Safeway in West Hollywood dropped in sales from around $770,000 a week to around $550,000 a week. It took years for it to recover.

The 1996 Pavilions expansion to San Diego was nixed by Safeway.
Don't forget around the same time they tried to expand into the hispanic market with Tianguis stores, some of which were former Safeways which failed. I remember there was a story in the San Diego Union Tribune that Vons was going to expand Pavilions into San Diego in La Jolla, Pacific Beach, Solano Beach, Escondido and on University St. As you mentioned it was nixed by Safeway, but the irony is that all the locations were original Safeway store locations.

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Re: Pavilions?

Post by storewanderer »

rwsandiego wrote: September 12th, 2020, 8:40 pm
It feels unlikely that this store was planned to be a Pavilions.

I heard many years ago back on the old Yahoo Finance SWY or ABS message board that this store was built out to be a Pavilions then they didn't go through with it and it ended up being a Lucky. It is possible there is some confusion but I think the source of that information was a long term employee.

I wonder if during that 18 months it was sitting vacant, it was being finished as a Pavilions then when they bolted Lucky opted to take it back.

Or if the old information I got about Pavilions was incorrect, it doesn't seem completely out of the question they built out a price impact "Advantage" store with no fresh departments. So, all of the wall spaces were built out, refrigerated, etc. Then to convert it to a normal Lucky they needed to add in bakery/deli/pharmacy. So they built bakery/deli into the middle of the store and threw pharmacy up in one of the front corners. The layout may have just so happened to be identical to a Pavilions.

There was an Albertsons in Culver City in a former Gemco and it had an odd layout but all of the service departments had wall spaces.

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