Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by veteran+ »

storewanderer wrote: July 11th, 2019, 10:51 pm
veteran+ wrote: July 11th, 2019, 8:33 am You know, I have been in retail grocery for about 25 years from Florida to Colorado to California and I have heard and studied all the theories and excuses about store levels wages and union vs non union. I have also been a successful small business owner twice.

I apologize in advance and hope no one gets angry but most of these "excuses" are nonsense.

Unions were never perfect and continue to be imperfect but without them it would be a different world today and it would NOT be good. We take so much for granted.

FACT: the demise of Unions is directly connected to low wages, benefits AND income disparity (Executives, Shareholders vs rank and file employees). Employees are usually awful advocates for themselves when facing their bosses. HR / ER departments are a joke and do nothing except protect the Company.

Better pay/benefits, better employees (as long as they are managed properly)...........period.

Companies do poorly because of flawed "business plans", poor market research, incompetent management, failure to change or evolve and often times plain ole greed......................NOT because they paid their employees well or too much.

There are other factors as well, like allowing anti competitive activities that REDUCE choice for shoppers and employees. Choice is power and all those "excuses" like efficiencies and synergies and better use of consolidated R&D, and blah blah will help the consumer and employee has only given more power to the Corporation NOT the employee or consumer.

IMHO :-)
I still think low wage competition has been a major issue that has killed many union jobs in this country. Be it low wage competition from a similar competitor here (Wal Mart in the 90's and 00's to grocers...) or globally (shifting manufacturing elsewhere since the wages elsewhere are so much lower than the US). I would not explicitly say union wages being too high killed US manufacturing (if the wage here is $30/hr and the wage elsewhere is $2/hr... the spread is just too high for the US to compete with... union or not) though some would say it did. As you point out, the executives always get paid. Even when they bankrupt the company in the form of retention bonuses.

Again look at grocery. In the past you had various unionized grocers from a mix of regional chains, independents, and the larger chains. Now in a lot of markets the independents are gone or almost gone, regional chains are gone or almost gone, and national chains have done mergers or market exits. It is almost to the point in some markets (let's think of Arizona) where the only unionized operators are Fry's and Safeway (not Albertsons). People like Lucky, Alpha Beta, and Abco who were union are long gone. There are basically no independents and probably never were many. When does it reach the point that there are so few companies as a part of the union that the union is no longer legitimately independent and simply acting as an agent of these companies? You know the eggs in one basket theory. In some cases this is where it feels like the union has ended up... and when the best the union can get is wages and benefits package that are like those of Wal Mart, it is harder to see what purpose the union is really serving. I know there is more to it than pay; there are benefits, there is the ability to file a grievance, employee assistance programs, guaranteed minimum number of hours, clear job description, various other protections, etc. but many part time employees are young and not looking much past the next check. I would have preferred to see the unions somehow help keep the higher standard of retail grocery employee in place instead of giving in to the demands of the chains and letting the standards lower to a Wal Mart type level. And that is a prime example of where the unions sold out their members for the benefit of the large chains. Again, I understand fully, it was the grocers who drove that... two tier contracts where young employees could never make what the older employees make even if they stay 25 years... union grocery jobs used to be very competitive sought after jobs in the 90's, now they can't fill positions. Something is going to have to change.
"You know the eggs in one basket theory. In some cases this is where it feels like the union has ended up... and when the best the union can get is wages and benefits package that are like those of Wal Mart, it is harder to see what purpose the union is really serving."

Yep, that's what they did with the second tier disaster. Fear of Walmart inspired the unions and the companies to create that second tier that only made Walmart stronger! Those "companies" also benefited, conveniently.

The losers were the second tier employees (who like Walmart employees only survive with social service support) and the unions! I just don't think there is any going back.
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by pseudo3d »

veteran+ wrote: July 11th, 2019, 8:33 am You know, I have been in retail grocery for about 25 years from Florida to Colorado to California and I have heard and studied all the theories and excuses about store levels wages and union vs non union. I have also been a successful small business owner twice.

I apologize in advance and hope no one gets angry but most of these "excuses" are nonsense.

Unions were never perfect and continue to be imperfect but without them it would be a different world today and it would NOT be good. We take so much for granted.

FACT: the demise of Unions is directly connected to low wages, benefits AND income disparity (Executives, Shareholders vs rank and file employees). Employees are usually awful advocates for themselves when facing their bosses. HR / ER departments are a joke and do nothing except protect the Company.

Better pay/benefits, better employees (as long as they are managed properly)...........period.

Companies do poorly because of flawed "business plans", poor market research, incompetent management, failure to change or evolve and often times plain ole greed......................NOT because they paid their employees well or too much.

There are other factors as well, like allowing anti competitive activities that REDUCE choice for shoppers and employees. Choice is power and all those "excuses" like efficiencies and synergies and better use of consolidated R&D, and blah blah will help the consumer and employee has only given more power to the Corporation NOT the employee or consumer.

IMHO :-)
I think the fact that a single union (in say, California's case UFCW 324) controlling all three of what were the major grocers plus other stores is anti-competitive itself, anything that upsets the employees of one unionized store upsets all of them, and (correct if me I'm wrong) a store can't really offer anything different than other unions, and if they can, it has to be on top of everything else.
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by SamSpade »

Update: Union members have "ovewhelmingly" approved the strike provision.
The focus continues to be on Fred Meyer stores in almost all coverage.
portland grocery workers wage negotiations strike approval union

OregonLive.com / Portland Oregonian:
https://www.oregonlive.com/business/201 ... -fail.html
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by babs »

According to the link in the OregonLive story I didn't realize grocery wages had declined so much. Having said that, this strike isn't going to fix it. If they strike, this will help Winco, Costco, Walmart, Whole Foods, New Seasons and others to gain market share. Some people will discover these new stores and never return. I don't know the answer but a strike isn't it.
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by Super S »

babs wrote: August 26th, 2019, 11:12 pm According to the link in the OregonLive story I didn't realize grocery wages had declined so much. Having said that, this strike isn't going to fix it. If they strike, this will help Winco, Costco, Walmart, Whole Foods, New Seasons and others to gain market share. Some people will discover these new stores and never return. I don't know the answer but a strike isn't it.
Interesting timing with Walmart wanting to increase market share. Portland hasn't been very welcoming of Walmart, but if a strike does occur, things could change.
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by SamSpade »

babs wrote: August 26th, 2019, 11:12 pm According to the link in the OregonLive story I didn't realize grocery wages had declined so much.
Based on the posted link, starting wage of $12.10/hour moving to $12.60/hour seems pretty awful in 2019.

I worked as an office-based temp for $11-12/hour in 2007 in this market. At that time, it was a passable living wage. That was with catastrophic coverage health insurance I was quietly paying for out of my parents' address in Idaho (about $125/mo), no holiday pay, no pension. I was also eating a lot of toast, soup, and cheap protein. My car was paid off. My rent was $725/mo. Rents now are about $1200-1500/mo. for a 1-2 bedroom apartment in Portland metro I'd estimate.

The companies are offering some positives (guaranteed number of hours, for example) but I see both sides.
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by storewanderer »

SamSpade wrote: August 28th, 2019, 8:47 am
babs wrote: August 26th, 2019, 11:12 pm According to the link in the OregonLive story I didn't realize grocery wages had declined so much.
Based on the posted link, starting wage of $12.10/hour moving to $12.60/hour seems pretty awful in 2019.

I worked as an office-based temp for $11-12/hour in 2007 in this market. At that time, it was a passable living wage. That was with catastrophic coverage health insurance I was quietly paying for out of my parents' address in Idaho (about $125/mo), no holiday pay, no pension. I was also eating a lot of toast, soup, and cheap protein. My car was paid off. My rent was $725/mo. Rents now are about $1200-1500/mo. for a 1-2 bedroom apartment in Portland metro I'd estimate.

The companies are offering some positives (guaranteed number of hours, for example) but I see both sides.
Unionized grocery jobs used to be well paying but over the years they have become similarly poor paying just like other retail jobs without a union. The quality of service in the grocery stores has seriously declined since the 90's as a result of this wage structure that they have chosen. I get they did this to try to compete, but... not sure how the end game will play out for the grocers or for the union as a result of joining the race to the bottom.
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by SamSpade »

Things are heating up between Fred Meyer, Portland-area QFCs and its unionized food department(s) employees:
Grocery union cancels contracts with Kroger: Union leaders will be announcing economic action Tuesday

The union is not yet on strike, but they have cancelled their current contracts. Workers may continue to report under a cancelled contract but this opens the door for the union to accelerate toward their actions (leaflet dispensing, picketing, striking by a single department, full store strike).

Still no mention of the Albertsons Cos out there. They are either a "silent partner" or have a better agreement on the table with the union.

Note: This is also being reported on the local public broadcaster, but their website does not have a link to a story yet. Here is their previous story, which includes this additional information -
UFCW Local 555 gave Fred Meyer 10 days’ notice that it plans to cancel what’s known as the CCK — or “central checkout” — contract. That agreement covers a group of about 2,300 Fred Meyer cashiers.

Canceling the contract opens the door to other economic actions — a door the union appears ready to walk through.

“There is a high likelihood that we will see an economic action taken against stores in the near future,” UFCW Local 555 president Dan Clay said in a statement. “We will release details by Tuesday, September 10th.”
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by SamSpade »

So, obviously all employer benefits packages may differ, and (arguably) Portland market is less expensive than Seattle, but here is what HMart is offering to employees for their new downtown Seattle store that will be opening later this month.
  • $16-$18/hour
  • Typical employer benefits after 3 months although the annual incentive is something my employer doesn't offer
H Mart posting in downtown Seattle
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Re: Oregon and SW Washington UFCW Union May Strike

Post by storewanderer »

SamSpade wrote: September 13th, 2019, 3:26 pm So, obviously all employer benefits packages may differ, and (arguably) Portland market is less expensive than Seattle, but here is what HMart is offering to employees for their new downtown Seattle store that will be opening later this month.
  • $16-$18/hour
  • Typical employer benefits after 3 months although the annual incentive is something my employer doesn't offer
H Mart posting in downtown Seattle
Given the $15/hr minimum wage (right?) in Seattle, this does not really go too far above that baseline. Just a little bit above, enough to give people a reason to work there vs. a restaurant that pays minimum.
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