Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

Post by BillyGr »

storewanderer wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 2:13 pm
BillyGr wrote: September 3rd, 2021, 1:44 pm
Perhaps more surprising that those places doing the pickup services don't just invest in some inexpensive plastic bins. They could then ask when orders are placed if people want their items in bags (for a fee) or unbagged (they just bring the bin out and out the items into your bags or loose in your vehicle).

Alternatively, they could offer the bins to take home for a refundable fee (kind of like a bottle deposit, but high enough that people will return them when they come for the next order). That would be feasible, as they are much easier to clean out than a bag.

As to the reusable bags, it must just depend on the area, as I usually see most people bringing them in and going out with them here in NY - you do see a few people coming out with paper bags (which most stores charge for even if they are in areas where the fee is not required, and there was no option in our rules for the heavy plastic bags).
They do have plastic bins with the pick-up service, that is how the orders are transported from storage to vehicle. But if you do a pick up that has 50 items, and would have had 5 bags, it would take the employee a few seconds to load those 5 bags into your car. But if the items are unbagged, it is going to take them a few minutes to load the items into your car. Cost of lost efficiency far outweighs whatever the bag cost is.

I suppose they could just dump the 50 item plastic tote onto your back set and let the items just go wherever; that would certainly be efficient. Perhaps that level of service could be provided exclusively for the folks who put these bag bans into place. It is not right to expect the store employee to waste 3-5 minutes unloading individual items to your car, while there are other customers waiting, when the pick-up process would have taken a few seconds had the items been bagged.

I have seen some pick-up services in CA (notably Safeway) where it is mandatory to pay for the bag fee if you go to the store and pick the order up (assuming they actually charge it . . .). Wal Mart is optional. Target and Walgreens automatically charge you a bag fee (Target automatically charges you for 10 bags even if you have 1 item), but say they will take the fee off if you decline their bags. They bring the order out to you already bagged so if you decline the bags, (which have stickers with your name, etc. on them) the bags are then supposedly just thrown away. Had 1 Walgreens in CA tell me they had no way to take the 10 cent fee away when I picked the order up.
Where the bins with loose items would make sense is those who are going to decline the bags anyway (like the Target situation you describe).
If they decline those bags, then the employee has to unpack the bags and put the items in loose (or into the customer's bags), no?
Leaving them loose in the bin in that situation would probably take less time to unload than unpacking from the store bags at the car.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

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BillyGr wrote: September 5th, 2021, 12:58 pm
Where the bins with loose items would make sense is those who are going to decline the bags anyway (like the Target situation you describe).
If they decline those bags, then the employee has to unpack the bags and put the items in loose (or into the customer's bags), no?
Leaving them loose in the bin in that situation would probably take less time to unload than unpacking from the store bags at the car.
That would ensure the customer comes back to the store. Do you want to be in possession of some store's plastic bin(s) in your trunk until your next shopping trip there (maybe next week, maybe not for a few weeks)? What if you need to haul other things in your vehicle in the interim? What if you decide you don't want to shop there anymore? There would need to be a deposit of some type on the bin/container too.

Also those plastic bins would need to be cleaned after a customer returns them. No telling what a customer did with those bins in their trunk or the back of their car. Did their dog sit in them? Did they throw their kid's used diaper into it? Who knows. So those would definitely need to be cleaned and sanitized upon return. How much chemical, energy, water use would go into that process?

Yes, if bags are declined the employee has to unpack the bags and put the items loose. That was the whole point as to why these bag regulations are really screwing up the entire pick up model's efficiency. The store will come out ahead giving the bags away.

If you are paying the employee $15/hr base (add in taxes and benefits and you are at around $20/hr or more) then you are paying them 25 cents per minute. So to spend 3 minutes screwing around unpacking bags out at the pick up station costs 75 cents minimum of employee time. Not to mention the delay and hassle for other waiting customers. The way these pick up carts for Wal Mart, Kroger, Safeway, etc. are designed is they put the plastic bags into the plastic bins and bag the items as they pick them - the item is scanned then bagged immediately on the sales floor. No time difference in order picking as to whether they use bags or not. The carts they use to go around the store and pick items have a bag rack on them just like at the checkstand.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

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That's why I suggested if they know someone doesn't want bags to just put items in the bin. It may not take longer when selecting them, but it would be easier to unload from a bin into the car than from several bags.

If they offered the option to take stuff home in the bins, they wouldn't be in your car until the next shopping trip, since you'd logically bring them inside with the stuff in them and leave them there until the next time you go (the same as people do with reusable bags).

There would be a deposit to make sure people return them, but that isn't anything new (just like is already done in many states with beverage cans/bottles). It would have to be a bit larger to be sure people didn't just keep them for home use (though having ones without covers would probably help that).

They would have to clean them out, but it doesn't have to be a long process, and would be similar to people cleaning their own bags (if they choose to do so - not everyone does since it depends on what they are getting - putting a bunch of boxes and cans in a bag isn't getting it dirty, and anything on the bag isn't getting into those sealed items).
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

Post by Brian Lutz »

I don't know if they still do it, but I used to have a neighbor who regularly shopped with Amazon Fresh for grocery delivery, and their groceries were always delivered in plastic totes that were left at their apartment door. Presumably they left them out to be collected at the next delivery and reused.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

Post by storewanderer »

Brian Lutz wrote: September 7th, 2021, 2:21 pm I don't know if they still do it, but I used to have a neighbor who regularly shopped with Amazon Fresh for grocery delivery, and their groceries were always delivered in plastic totes that were left at their apartment door. Presumably they left them out to be collected at the next delivery and reused.
Yes, this is how many of the "euro" services do it as well.

Hopefully they are cleaned... the totes that get sent to stores then back to distribution center certainly aren't cleaned much (look at a CVS tote and find trash, gum, bugs, and various other very nasty stuff).

But still- tying the customer to getting their items in a specific store's plastic bin (with the assumption it needs to be returned to that store) be it via pick up or via delivery ties the customer to that one store. That is fine as long as you want to keep shopping there every time. But if you want to move around and shop different stores, it isn't so easy.

And cleaning/properly sanitizing these bins is another issue. Not too hard- you basically need a big dishwasher sort of equipment to clean the things if you are cleaning them properly. How much does that cost to run, energy does it use, chemical does it emit, water does it use, etc.?

And ultimately you have mucked up the process so bad that you have turned what was previously easy and efficient (bagging the groceries in a paper or plastic bag) into a big ordeal requiring various additional equipment and procedures.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

Post by mbz321 »

storewanderer wrote: September 7th, 2021, 6:30 pm

Hopefully they are cleaned... the totes that get sent to stores then back to distribution center certainly aren't cleaned much (look at a CVS tote and find trash, gum, bugs, and various other very nasty stuff).

But still- tying the customer to getting their items in a specific store's plastic bin (with the assumption it needs to be returned to that store) be it via pick up or via delivery ties the customer to that one store. That is fine as long as you want to keep shopping there every time. But if you want to move around and shop different stores, it isn't so easy.

And cleaning/properly sanitizing these bins is another issue. Not too hard- you basically need a big dishwasher sort of equipment to clean the things if you are cleaning them properly. How much does that cost to run, energy does it use, chemical does it emit, water does it use, etc.?
I think you are overthinking this whole cleaning/sanitizing thing. Most people don't care or require that kind of cleanliness for something simply used to transport boxed/canned groceries (assuming produce items and meat would still be bagged). Do you wipe down your entire cart with Clorox wipes before you shop every time? Get real.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

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mbz321 wrote: September 8th, 2021, 8:55 pm
I think you are overthinking this whole cleaning/sanitizing thing. Most people don't care or require that kind of cleanliness for something simply used to transport boxed/canned groceries (assuming produce items and meat would still be bagged). Do you wipe down your entire cart with Clorox wipes before you shop every time? Get real.
The cart isn't quite the same because the cart is always in public spaces on store property, particularly often in sunlight. Sunlight kills many germs. Ever wonder why so many stores keep carts outside (even large stores with ample space for the carts inside)? Also many stores do clean carts on a schedule of some sort (before COVID- it was a monthly sort of activity done by a contractor).

Once that plastic crate is out of the store's possession, if it is to be tampered with or otherwise somehow compromised, and then returned to the store and subsequently given to someone else dirty or contaminated, and that someone else's groceries are in turn compromised, then there is going to be a lawsuit. Nothing may get paid out but it still costs money to screw around fighting about it. That is the real world reason why these would need to be cleaned/sanitized upon return if they leave the store's possession.

But if you like the idea of taking into your car communal unsanitized plastic crates that just had the last user's dog sleeping inside it and had the last customer's kid's dirty diaper thrown inside it since there was nothing else in the back seat to throw that into (since there are no longer any loose bags to throw those in and quickly dispose), then okay... Who knows what that sticky solution is in the bottom of the plastic crate there is no need to clean- maybe it is just residue from a container of ice cream that melted in transit. Maybe it is from a quick dog pee clean up. Who knows. I can tell you there is no way I'd ever use these communal crates. Ever go to the airport and see how filthy those crates at security are? Those get cleaned throughout the day and they are still filthy. Same idea here.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

Post by Romr123 »

The analogy is milk crates or USPS mail totes...they're expensive for the dairies to replace, but they do have the benefit of branding etc.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

Post by mbz321 »

storewanderer wrote: The cart isn't quite the same because the cart is always in public spaces on store property, particularly often in sunlight. Sunlight kills many germs. Ever wonder why so many stores keep carts outside (even large stores with ample space for the carts inside)? Also many stores do clean carts on a schedule of some sort (before COVID- it was a monthly sort of activity done by a contractor).

Once that plastic crate is out of the store's possession, if it is to be tampered with or otherwise somehow compromised, and then returned to the store and subsequently given to someone else dirty or contaminated, and that someone else's groceries are in turn compromised, then there is going to be a lawsuit. Nothing may get paid out but it still costs money to screw around fighting about it. That is the real world reason why these would need to be cleaned/sanitized upon return if they leave the store's possession.
Stores don't always clean their carts and carts are definitely not always in the 'sunlight' to 'sanitize' them. Again, this whole plastic bag ban debate is such a non-issue. You might have a heart attack if you knew how dirty the outside of a lot of grocery packaging is from transport from the manufacturer to the distribution center, to the store, and to your home. Plastic bags have recently banned in Philly and somehow people have managed to find a way to take their groceries home.
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Re: Washington trying again to ban plastic bags

Post by storewanderer »

mbz321 wrote: September 9th, 2021, 10:21 am

Stores don't always clean their carts and carts are definitely not always in the 'sunlight' to 'sanitize' them. Again, this whole plastic bag ban debate is such a non-issue. You might have a heart attack if you knew how dirty the outside of a lot of grocery packaging is from transport from the manufacturer to the distribution center, to the store, and to your home. Plastic bags have recently banned in Philly and somehow people have managed to find a way to take their groceries home.
Actually you are not quite correct about the current situation in Philly. Many stores in Philly still dispense free thin plastic bags, (they are "prohibited" starting October 1, but formal enforcement does not start there until April 2022), free paper bags, or they are charging a fee for a super thick plastic bag that is identical in shape and size to the previous thin bag. So you are making a false statement there when you say plastic bags are banned. They are not- only the thin ones made from plastic film of blown film extrusion are. There will continue to be many "reusable" plastic bags dispensed more than 2.25ml thick there that will be used once and thrown out after April 2022. And many of those will be used once and thrown out.

You are absolutely right about the grocery packaging. I found some canned drink mix with rodent droppings on its bottom packaging in a store earlier this week, at a store which shall go nameless, which was sitting on the shelf in the box from the manufacturer. It was all pulled immediately when I let them know, and they started checking surrounding facings/boxes as well. It is possible this product had been to multiple other warehouses before ending up at this store and was near expiration. That is all the more reason why things need to be cleaned and sanitized regularly- situations like that.
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