Capacity Limits... in the winter

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storewanderer
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by storewanderer »

I was in South Lake Tahoe last night and the restaurants at Heavenly Village (this is a few hundred feet into CA) were all doing outdoor dining and tables packed together, a couple feet apart at best, at 100% capacity, and nobody wearing masks while they were sitting at the tables. No six foot distancing or reduced capacity on that outdoor dining. Most of the independent restaurants elsewhere up there, and even Denny's, have given up their outdoor tables they had during the summer and were doing take out only, if they were even open at all. Many cities/counties have put the enforcement of current CA business closures on the CA Health Division as local sheriffs, etc. have said they will not be enforcing these business closures.

Last week in Nevada a news article was published noting our hospitals were reaching capacity. It went on to say "91% of available staffed beds" in Nevada hospitals were occupied. Wow, I thought. How is that possible? Then I looked at it again and saw "available staffed beds" - what does that mean? So I drove by 3 hospitals in Reno the other night between 6 and 6:30 PM. At two of them, about 80% of the windows were dark in the rooms; at the other one, no more than about 60% of the windows were dark. I am sure some patients were in dark rooms/asleep.

I found the statistics on this and it seems the 91% figure was for Washoe County specifically, not the whole state as the article reported, but then only 77% of total beds in Washoe occupied because the hospitals have cut staff.
https://nvha.net/wp-content/uploads/Dec-1-Charts.pdf

Also of those filled ICU beds in CA, did they release how many of them are filled by COVID patients? And also how the current ICU Bed occupancy rate compares to prior years? I hope they actually have all of the actual ICU Beds "available and staffed" and are not doing something where only a fraction of them are "available and staffed" and the report it as full. Given how an ICU is set up, with a single patient in a given room, there would be no COVID distancing reason to close any available ICU beds. Not that it matters what you have, if you need an ICU bed and there isn't one available... but I think hospital capacity rates have been pretty high for quite a number of years...
Alpha8472
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by Alpha8472 »

I worked at a busy Kaiser Hospital in the San Francisco Bay Area 9 years ago. The hospital did reach capacity several times in the winter even back then. The flu was what caused it. Back then, there was no big deal as patients were simply placed in the hallways or transferred to other hospitals many miles away. You cannot put people in hallways now. Instead of sick people in hallways, now you have a major shortage of beds.

If beds were not available back then, you would cancel elective surgeries or release people to go home early. That was when you could release flu patients back home to self care at home or get care from relatives at home. Now you have COVID-19 patients that cannot be cared for at home and will die if not put on ventilators. So yes, there is less capacity now than back when flu was the major winter killer.
klkla
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by klkla »

storewanderer wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:11 am Last week in Nevada a news article was published noting our hospitals were reaching capacity. It went on to say "91% of available staffed beds" in Nevada hospitals were occupied. Wow, I thought. How is that possible? Then I looked at it again and saw "available staffed beds" - what does that mean? So I drove by 3 hospitals in Reno the other night between 6 and 6:30 PM. At two of them, about 80% of the windows were dark in the rooms; at the other one, no more than about 60% of the windows were dark. I am sure some patients were in dark rooms/asleep.

I found the statistics on this and it seems the 91% figure was for Washoe County specifically, not the whole state as the article reported, but then only 77% of total beds in Washoe occupied because the hospitals have cut staff.
https://nvha.net/wp-content/uploads/Dec-1-Charts.pdf

Also of those filled ICU beds in CA, did they release how many of them are filled by COVID patients? And also how the current ICU Bed occupancy rate compares to prior years? I hope they actually have all of the actual ICU Beds "available and staffed" and are not doing something where only a fraction of them are "available and staffed" and the report it as full. Given how an ICU is set up, with a single patient in a given room, there would be no COVID distancing reason to close any available ICU beds. Not that it matters what you have, if you need an ICU bed and there isn't one available... but I think hospital capacity rates have been pretty high for quite a number of years...
All of this is a distraction. Look at the big picture. 1/4 million Americans diagnosed with Covid YESTERDAY. 2,637 Americans died of Covid YESTERDAY. That's up 42% from two weeks ago. This thing is raging out of control and people need to stop looking for scapegoats.
storewanderer
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by storewanderer »

klkla wrote: December 5th, 2020, 5:19 pm All of this is a distraction. Look at the big picture. 1/4 million Americans diagnosed with Covid YESTERDAY. 2,637 Americans died of Covid YESTERDAY. That's up 42% from two weeks ago. This thing is raging out of control and people need to stop looking for scapegoats.
How many people were diagnosed with flu yesterday, and died from flu yesterday? And compared to last year same day- how many?

With all of the COVID restrictions, it seems the flu is a non-event this year.

How many people are going to get sick standing outside in the cold, in front of stores waiting to get inside due to these COVID-related "capacity limits?"

I agree things are raging out of control... not only "this thing" but a lot of other things to do with it. But the vaccine is coming... after which point I don't think we will be hearing nearly as much about COVID anymore.

Most people are done with COVID, done with these restrictions, and equating this thing to a rebranded version of the seasonal flu. Even people I know who have had COVID... maybe it is easier for them to be done with it, after having it, since they have the antibodies.

Nevertheless it is important to be careful but in general people are just over this whole thing. I cannot believe how many people at this point just tell me "if I get it I get it" - no longer caring about being careful. All we can do here is make personal choices that are consistent with what we feel safe doing (or not doing) while adhering to policies and laws in place (mask, capacity, etc.), and if we go to a place where those policies/laws are not being followed- get out of there.

Problem is we need common sense rules that will actually make a difference here, not either meaningless or tried and failed already rules that are put out there just to sound like someone is doing something. And there is far too much of that going on right now. The recent business closures seem to target low hanging fruit like a haircut place, but largely "protect" sales-tax generating businesses which were previously back in April/May being closed. We have a bigger problem now than we had in April/May. What good will more lax restrictions now, than we had in April/May have? Coincidence? I think not.
klkla
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by klkla »

We are all tired of the restrictions but that doesn’t change FACTS.

From January 26, 2020, through October 3, 2020, an estimated 299,028 more persons than expected have died in the United States per CDC. Excess deaths reached their highest points to date during the weeks ending April 11 (40.4% excess) and August 8, 2020 (23.5% excess) This data is from the CDC and doesn’t include the last two months.

This virus is real and needs to be taken seriously.
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by TW-Upstate NY »

The time of year (Christmas shopping season) doesn't help matters either. Stores want as many people in their establishments as they can get. It's also gathering time which means restaurants are looking to stay open as at full a capacity as they can be as well. This "damn the torpedoes full speed ahead" mentality has only made problems worse and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I haven't set foot in a store in almost three weeks myself but probably will later on this upcoming week. The original plan was two grocery stores only but there was a recent exposure at one of them so now I'm down to one. As far as me going to the big-box stores anytime soon-forget it. Right now, I can't see myself heading to a Wal-Mart or Target and the like until sometime after the middle of next month and maybe later than that if these case numbers continue to head into the stratosphere. As an example, the county where I live has had relatively low numbers throughout this entire sorry and preventable saga of the American experience. Over the last couple weeks, they've gone up a bit and just yesterday they exploded-we went from 9 reported new cases Friday (quite high for this area) to 42 yesterday (that's no typo folks-an almost FIVE-FOLD increase from the previous day.) I haven't found any info. on whether there's a cluster somewhere which would explain that number and the frightening part is if it isn't a cluster, it's out there in the community and who knows where that number goes from here. Also heard a chilling news item the other day related to this-the virus has surpassed heart disease as the number one killer in the country and it did this in a matter of months. The shocking part is that with heart disease, it usually takes years before one succumbs to it and with this it's only a matter of a few weeks. Hey folks, this is REAL. It's not a hoax and it's not a joke-WEAR THE DAMNED MASK!!!!!
storewanderer
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by storewanderer »

klkla wrote: December 6th, 2020, 2:35 am We are all tired of the restrictions but that doesn’t change FACTS.

From January 26, 2020, through October 3, 2020, an estimated 299,028 more persons than expected have died in the United States per CDC. Excess deaths reached their highest points to date during the weeks ending April 11 (40.4% excess) and August 8, 2020 (23.5% excess) This data is from the CDC and doesn’t include the last two months.

This virus is real and needs to be taken seriously.
Well, I guess we all need to stay home? What is the solution here? We have been complying with the rules- masks, social distancing, etc. and here we are at this point...

There seems to be a blame game thing going on pushed by the media where there is an agenda being pushed out to the public that people are not wearing masks and such and that is why we are having so much growth of the virus. Well, in my area, people have been wearing masks and have been social distancing. We have record cases now. We have kept most businesses open in Nevada this time around but with capacity limits with what I will call questionable or interesting enforcement at best (Governor Steve Sisolak-D doesn't seem to want to do any more business closures)- the state needs the money- it is desperate. And with the mandated closures in CA, it appears NV is counting on CA residents who are bored to come over here to NV where more businesses are open and spend money.

A few weeks ago the media was pushing articles about how great San Francisco was doing with the virus control because its citizens were being so "diligent" with following the rules. Now San Francisco is about to go into a month-long stay at home order/lockdown per a decision made by its mayor- even though it hasn't hit the metrics that the state of California has established to do a shut down. They say it is precautionary to shut down now so they don't get there. Really? What happened? Underreporting of cases there to paint a rosy picture, probably. Or is it overreporting of cases elsewhere to paint a dark picture?

Will these capacity limits make any difference? What is the impact on a capacity limit vs. closing the business? Obviously it is better for the tax revenue and for the business, to be open even at reduced capacity. But as far as this virus spread thing goes - this remains to be seen. I am seeing rather dubious stuff going on with these capacity limits. For instance, a grocery store with a capacity limit on the sales floor, but letting 40 people stand in line close together against the front wall of the store so they don't have to wait outside in the cold. Or, a casino following its 25% capacity limit for the gaming floor, but then has hundreds of people lined up in close proximity in a common walkway off the gaming floor in the conference area waiting in line for hotel elevators. So this whole thing is rather dubious. Bottom line is as was said here people still want to go out, still want to do things, and short of locking people up in their houses, many people are still going out and have had it with these rules. Better get another approach here people can buy into- the current approaches do not have public buy in.

I think at this point everyone is just waiting for the vaccine and at that point this whole thing of lockdowns, reporting record cases every day, people going and getting tested for the heck of it multiple times in a month, etc. is going to be over and the attitude is going to be - if you are concerned, go get the vaccine.
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by jamcool »

For all you mask worshipers.....California has had mask requirements since the spring yet their case rates are still going up, most of the population of the country wears masks yet the rates are going up. And a mask does not stop a virus- look at the warning label on the box of masks. The masks used by doctors-N95s-have to be changed frequently, are hard to breath through because of the filtration, and are worn with other protective gear. Your cute little face cover with the diamond studs ain’t gonna cut it for viruses.

Also this is the first pandemic that has been politicized....which never happened with Polio, Measles, Spanish Flu, Hong Kong Flu, Asian Flu, of which killed thousands yet the country was never shut down for them.
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by storewanderer »

jamcool wrote: December 6th, 2020, 10:38 am For all you mask worshipers.....California has had mask requirements since the spring yet their case rates are still going up, most of the population of the country wears masks yet the rates are going up. And a mask does not stop a virus- look at the warning label on the box of masks. The masks used by doctors-N95s-have to be changed frequently, are hard to breath through because of the filtration, and are worn with other protective gear. Your cute little face cover with the diamond studs ain’t gonna cut it for viruses.

Also this is the first pandemic that has been politicized....which never happened with Polio, Measles, Spanish Flu, Hong Kong Flu, Asian Flu, of which killed thousands yet the country was never shut down for them.
I am wondering if the masks are potentially helping reduce transmission of the usual cold/flu, though... because there is virtually none of that going around this year... I do think the public has had it with masks as well but there is still (from where I am) strong public buy in on the mask wearing thing. Look at most marketing, on social media, etc. and people are photographed without masks on constantly. I have seen a few marketing clips by retailers showing people with masks on and they just look... weird and impersonal.

I see very few people going around with the N95s. I am wondering if those masks should be required for people who are working with prepared food/food handling? Given the media has pushed the agenda that the mask is to protect others, not protect the person wearing the mask. I really do wonder how much case spread has come via food preparation. It is basically impossible to measure. Perhaps we need to regulate that anyone who is handling prepared food/ready to eat wears the N-95 mask at all times while handing the raw product. I'm not talking about the butcher handling raw meat the customer is going to cook (at a temperature that should kill germs), I'm talking the chef in the restaurant, the food server, the deli clerk, the baker, etc.
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Re: Capacity Limits... in the winter

Post by klkla »

storewanderer wrote: December 6th, 2020, 10:26 am Well, I guess we all need to stay home? What is the solution here? We have been complying with the rules- masks, social distancing, etc. and here we are at this point...
As a country we have not been complying with all the rules. Far from it. The U.S. represents only 4% of the world's population but more than 25% of the deaths. Just yesterday at a political rally in Georgia many people in the audience were not wearing masks. They were not social distancing at all. It's hard to believe that these super spreader events are still happening with all the evidence showing how dangerous it is.

Also the comparisons with past flu seasons is irrelevant.

Last year 38 million flu cases and 22,000 deaths.

This year Covid alone so far is 14.7 million and 281,000 DEATHS as of today.

This is much more deadly.
jamcool wrote: December 6th, 2020, 10:38 am For all you mask worshipers.....California has had mask requirements since the spring yet their case rates are still going up, most of the population of the country wears masks yet the rates are going up.
There is no such this a a 'mask worshipper'. Nobody wants to wear them. But it's the one thing that all of us as individuals can do stop the spread.

So keeping this on thread, capacity limits and mask wearing needs to be maintained in retail stores.
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