Signs of trouble at Target?

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by veteran+ » July 2nd, 2019, 9:34 am

Target is now at $13./hr and will be at $15./hr by the end of 2020.

Walmart is supposedly at $11./hr and will be at $15./hr by the end of 2020.

IMO, Target has deteriorated to many levels that match Walmart's perpetual model of operation :-(

(including appearance and behavior of employees)

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by storewanderer » July 2nd, 2019, 6:16 pm

I think I have a pretty good way of handling Wal Mart. In my area within about a 60 mile radius, there are about 10 Wal Marts. There are basically about 4 Wal Marts that I will go into. These stores, are pretty good. Clean, orderly, lots of self checkouts so there is never a wait in line to pay. Shelves are routinely stocked and it is rare I don't find what I go in for. Employees are helpful. There are a couple other Wal Marts that I will reluctantly go into, but are not exactly what I'd call model stores by any stretch. The others, which are a real mess in every possible way (dirty, long lines, do not feel particularly safe at night, etc.), I simply avoid.

There are 3 Targets in my area and two of them are very busy stores. Those two are messy and seem to have issues with in-stock. Sometimes the floors are dirty. Last winter one had leaking ceilings and buckets on the floors in grocery for weeks. The lines are routinely very long at one location and I don't like the parking lot of that location having only one entry at one side of the building. The third Target, was built in 1995, has never been remodeled, and is in mint condition inside. It reminds me of a Kmart or Shopko. It is never crowded, always fully stocked, and has very friendly employees if you can find an employee because it is so empty of both customers and employees.

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by Alpha8472 » July 3rd, 2019, 5:26 pm

In the San Francisco Bay Area many cities pay a very high minimum wage. For example, San Leandro, California is at $14, Oakland is at $13.80. So Target and Walmart have no advantage. Target wants to pay more to attract higher quality employees, but in this area the minimum wage is so high everywhere that you can't attract higher quality people. Next year the wage goes up to 15 an hour.

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by klkla » July 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm

People sometimes freak out at a $15 minimum wage. But keep in mind that if adjusted for inflation it would be $21.16 based on it's highest value (at a time when income inequality was a fraction of what it is now). The federal minimum wage has not increased since 2009.

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by storewanderer » July 3rd, 2019, 9:46 pm

klkla wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm
People sometimes freak out at a $15 minimum wage. But keep in mind that if adjusted for inflation it would be $21.16 based on it's highest value (at a time when income inequality was a fraction of what it is now). The federal minimum wage has not increased since 2009.
Minimum wage paying businesses, which often seem to be franchise type operations, get what they pay for and the customers get the experience that comes with that wage. And it is not a good experience.

At this point a lot of large corporations are supporting a higher minimum wage because they know it will wash out a ton of small businesses that operate (I use that word lightly with how poorly some of these small businesses are run...) paying minimum wage.

As the wages rise, headcounts will continue to fall as automation becomes more and more attractive and produces a faster ROI. And as the automation becomes more common, the cost falls just because it is more common too. So this minimum wage increase movement, there is some equilibrium number that will create optimal employment levels, but if the wage gets too high then the automation will really take over... it is a fine line... and we will see how it plays out in the next decade.

Many retail and restaurant businesses in my area cannot fill positions. And then when they do fill the positions, the people either do not work or do not show up. People do not want to work 4-6 hour shifts with a concentration of evenings and weekends, even at $11-$13 per hour with limited or no benefits. It is just not worth it. These businesses really need to look in the mirror and attempt to retain employees with a full time schedule and a wage that is enough to keep the employee on the job. I think businesses should fight this fight on their own and the government needs to stay out of it. Businesses that pay their employees will be successful and operate well (like Costco). Businesses that don't will get what they pay for (many franchise type operations) and end up out of business.

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by veteran+ » July 4th, 2019, 8:48 am

klkla wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm
People sometimes freak out at a $15 minimum wage. But keep in mind that if adjusted for inflation it would be $21.16 based on it's highest value (at a time when income inequality was a fraction of what it is now). The federal minimum wage has not increased since 2009.
Spot on!!!!!

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by storewanderer » July 4th, 2019, 11:55 am

veteran+ wrote:
July 4th, 2019, 8:48 am
klkla wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm
People sometimes freak out at a $15 minimum wage. But keep in mind that if adjusted for inflation it would be $21.16 based on it's highest value (at a time when income inequality was a fraction of what it is now). The federal minimum wage has not increased since 2009.
Spot on!!!!!
This problem extends far beyond just "minimum" wage jobs where the wage today does not even come close to the inflation adjusted wage of old. Various sectors; teachers in K-12, mid to lower level finance jobs, etc. the wage growth has not kept up at all with inflation. The logic is that if "minimum" wage rises it should push other wages up too, but will it? We will see. Employers can only pay so much and operate profitably... sure they can increase prices but then you get right back where you started again because again prices are too high for the wages.

The issue in general is costs for everything have simply gotten too high. The debt bubble that is fueling a lot of the US economy is not cheap to pay finance charges on both for businesses and for the US Government, and this is where it has gotten us.

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by klkla » July 4th, 2019, 6:42 pm

storewanderer wrote:
July 4th, 2019, 11:55 am
The logic is that if "minimum" wage rises it should push other wages up too, but will it? We will see.
That's the key that a lot of people don't get. That's what it's really about. There is plenty of statistical evidence to prove it is true.

But a lot of the other points you make are valid, as well. This topic is probably is too complicated for a thread about Target but suffice to say that if companies like Target were forced to pay a higher minimum wage it would help to start narrowing the income gap.

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by arizonaguy » July 4th, 2019, 7:03 pm

storewanderer wrote:
July 4th, 2019, 11:55 am
veteran+ wrote:
July 4th, 2019, 8:48 am
klkla wrote:
July 3rd, 2019, 5:36 pm
People sometimes freak out at a $15 minimum wage. But keep in mind that if adjusted for inflation it would be $21.16 based on it's highest value (at a time when income inequality was a fraction of what it is now). The federal minimum wage has not increased since 2009.
Spot on!!!!!
This problem extends far beyond just "minimum" wage jobs where the wage today does not even come close to the inflation adjusted wage of old. Various sectors; teachers in K-12, mid to lower level finance jobs, etc. the wage growth has not kept up at all with inflation. The logic is that if "minimum" wage rises it should push other wages up too, but will it? We will see. Employers can only pay so much and operate profitably... sure they can increase prices but then you get right back where you started again because again prices are too high for the wages.

The issue in general is costs for everything have simply gotten too high. The debt bubble that is fueling a lot of the US economy is not cheap to pay finance charges on both for businesses and for the US Government, and this is where it has gotten us.
Not to go too off topic but we are coming to a crossroads where, once the boomer generation dies off over the next 15 - 20 years, the vast majority of Americans are going to be in massive debt.

The boomers were the last generation where one could work a true middle class job, retire at 60, and own multiple homes with potentially a time share and boat as well. The increased costs of everything have made this all but impossible for most other generations.

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Re: Signs of trouble at Target?

Post by veteran+ » July 5th, 2019, 9:17 am

klkla wrote:
July 4th, 2019, 6:42 pm
storewanderer wrote:
July 4th, 2019, 11:55 am
The logic is that if "minimum" wage rises it should push other wages up too, but will it? We will see.
That's the key that a lot of people don't get. That's what it's really about. There is plenty of statistical evidence to prove it is true.

But a lot of the other points you make are valid, as well. This topic is probably is too complicated for a thread about Target but suffice to say that if companies like Target were forced to pay a higher minimum wage it would help to start narrowing the income gap.
Yes, it's complicated but root cause analysis would reveal (and has revealed) that excessive corporate wealth (Executive compensation and Stock Holders' profit demands) is what drives the abusive income disparity.

Trickle down is stunted or withheld in the name of competition, research/development, capital expenditures, technology, mergers, acquisitions, etc., etc.

Many of these "excuses" often do not show substantial increases in expenditures to support the reason for low wages and benefits for the rank and file.

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