WD Issues

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Re: WD Issues

Post by Knight »

storewanderer wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:11 pm I am most curious that they took a few of those Lucky's locations. I would not have expected any growth out of them. Maybe the leases went cheaply, but the store sizes are small and it will take some remodeling to make those into the usual Winn Dixie.
Jumping on the Lucky's location acquisition bandwagon is a questionable move. I do not see Winn-Dixie operating specialty organic/gourmet grocery stores.
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Re: The present and future of Randalls

Post by Bagels »

veteran+ wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 8:46 am Well you have to know the huge changes that were going on in S. Florida's population at the time and having lived there for many years I can tell you it was seismic and fast.

Publix paid attention and so did Walmart.

W/D, with its long history and knowledge of the market, had a real chance but I believe their R&D department and management team were grossly inept and living in the past. They were not tuned in and just about every decision was wrong and with the worst execution. Their actions were emblematic of their denial of all the changes.

The home town "boy" had the advantage and wasted it. All the other entrants into the market were in a learning curve with the fast changing demographics.
Even if Winn Dixie had been successful in dominating the Florida market, I doubt their dominance would've lasted. As I mentioned earlier, Walmart focused heavily on Florida for its initial Supercenters. Walmart, of course, featured extremely low prices that disputed the industry; although it was known to squeeze suppliers for cost, speculation has long been that its entire grocery division was operated at a loss for years, in order to increase sales of highly profitable general merchandise. It literally took decades for the playing field to level.

And then there was Publix, which has long enjoyed a larger than life reputation. Part of what made Publix so successful is that it has long invested in modernizing its store fleet, including routinely replacing aging stores. The other part is its high level of service, and attention to detail -- the breadth and quality of products found in its deli and bakery are better than any other traditional supermarket (and onpar with those found at places like Pavilions). It's been awhile since I've been in Publix, but I recall that they routinely cooked chicken throughout the day, tossing out the old chicken -- refusing to sell it -- when it sat out for X hours. Meanwhile, at Winn Dixie and elsewhere... that chicken sits there until the end of the day, and then is packaged up and put in the cold deli case where it becomes EBT eligible.

Winn Dixie simply lacked the business model to compete; if Publix had been a Kroger, Food Lion, Albertsons or anyone else, they would've had a chance. In the late 1990s/early 2000s, Winn Dixie acquired the stores (Central Florida) where it thought it could compete ... and then Publix, Walmart and Super Target started saturating the market. Winn Dixie itself built some beautiful stores and upgraded its service departments, clearly trying to compete with Publix. But it was too late... and it wasn't Publix.
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Re: WD Issues

Post by Bagels »

klkla wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:06 pmNot likely. It's more likely they're just piling on more debt and management fees to keep it going for a long as they can.
I think their private equity owner is still hopeful it could sell all or some of the chain to a competitor and cash in, but that's increasingly unlikely. SE Grocer's biggest strength was from New Orleans, around the Gulf Coast and through Northern Florida, but they've been closing stores and bleeding market share.
klkla wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:17 pmI would imagine they got a really cheap price and will not spend much capital to reopen the stores. And that's assuming they don't pull their offer. I'm pretty sure most chains are looking to cut capital expenditures until they're sure how strong the economy will be as a result of Covid-19.
Knight wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:27 pm Jumping on the Lucky's location acquisition bandwagon is a questionable move. I do not see Winn-Dixie operating specialty organic/gourmet grocery stores.
Winn Dixie intends to operate the stores as a traditional supermarket. I agree with kikla - they'll probably put as little money as possible into making them functional supermarkets. Given the large number of store closings in recent years, it's probable they have a large number of furniture and fixtures in storage (I'm certain they withheld some from liquidation to use for replacements or remodels, given that any liquidation price would've been in the toilet) that could make the transiton quick and cheap. Plus, Lucky stores are in far better condition and more aesthetically pleasing than the average SE Grocer store.
storewanderer wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 10:11 pmI am most curious that they took a few of those Lucky's locations. I would not have expected any growth out of them. Maybe the leases went cheaply, but the store sizes are small and it will take some remodeling to make those into the usual Winn Dixie.
Off topic, but if you look at Kroger's surplus real estate, Kroger has several locations available for sale or lease, along with several land sites. I assume Kroger must've been the landlord on some...
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Re: WD Issues

Post by Knight »

Bagels wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 3:05 am I think their private equity owner is still hopeful it could sell all or some of the chain to a competitor and cash in, but that's increasingly unlikely. SE Grocer's biggest strength was from New Orleans, around the Gulf Coast and through Northern Florida, but they've been closing stores and bleeding market share.
The opportunity for Lone Star Funds to completely divest Southeastern Grocers closed years ago.
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Re: The present and future of Randalls

Post by veteran+ »

Bagels wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 2:50 am
veteran+ wrote: March 22nd, 2020, 8:46 am Well you have to know the huge changes that were going on in S. Florida's population at the time and having lived there for many years I can tell you it was seismic and fast.

Publix paid attention and so did Walmart.

W/D, with its long history and knowledge of the market, had a real chance but I believe their R&D department and management team were grossly inept and living in the past. They were not tuned in and just about every decision was wrong and with the worst execution. Their actions were emblematic of their denial of all the changes.

The home town "boy" had the advantage and wasted it. All the other entrants into the market were in a learning curve with the fast changing demographics.
Even if Winn Dixie had been successful in dominating the Florida market, I doubt their dominance would've lasted. As I mentioned earlier, Walmart focused heavily on Florida for its initial Supercenters. Walmart, of course, featured extremely low prices that disputed the industry; although it was known to squeeze suppliers for cost, speculation has long been that its entire grocery division was operated at a loss for years, in order to increase sales of highly profitable general merchandise. It literally took decades for the playing field to level.

And then there was Publix, which has long enjoyed a larger than life reputation. Part of what made Publix so successful is that it has long invested in modernizing its store fleet, including routinely replacing aging stores. The other part is its high level of service, and attention to detail -- the breadth and quality of products found in its deli and bakery are better than any other traditional supermarket (and onpar with those found at places like Pavilions). It's been awhile since I've been in Publix, but I recall that they routinely cooked chicken throughout the day, tossing out the old chicken -- refusing to sell it -- when it sat out for X hours. Meanwhile, at Winn Dixie and elsewhere... that chicken sits there until the end of the day, and then is packaged up and put in the cold deli case where it becomes EBT eligible.

Winn Dixie simply lacked the business model to compete; if Publix had been a Kroger, Food Lion, Albertsons or anyone else, they would've had a chance. In the late 1990s/early 2000s, Winn Dixie acquired the stores (Central Florida) where it thought it could compete ... and then Publix, Walmart and Super Target started saturating the market. Winn Dixie itself built some beautiful stores and upgraded its service departments, clearly trying to compete with Publix. But it was too late... and it wasn't Publix.
I worked for Publix as well while in Florida.

Publix is an amazing company but with many many flaws that are well hidden and minimized because of its historical reputation. That reputation has morphed into an urban legend where they actually do Not earn that reputation in many cases.

The farther south you go within their territory the LESS they actually live up to that "urban legend". Certain very upscale neighborhoods in the southernmost areas still do a good job but many do NOT. So many stores in many neighborhoods that I lived in are NOT acceptable to me anymore for service (attitude) and fresh/quality products.

Florida is an interesting and complicated market and few have figured it out besides Publix and Walmart. I know there are significant markets in Florida that are NOT being served they way they would prefer. Most of the time your choice is between Walmart and Publix.

So if I am near S.W. 24 St. and 87 Av. in Miami I have to shop at a Publix where hardly no one speaks english, there are few healthy food items (like organic, etc.), no multi grain bread and fresh products that are not fresh, etc.

OR, shop at Walmart or a Cuban Market. :(
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Re: The present and future of Randalls

Post by pseudo3d »

Bagels wrote: March 21st, 2020, 3:55 pm
veteran+ wrote: March 21st, 2020, 7:36 am Many of the Goodings stores were formerly Pantry Prides.

The condition of the Pantry Pride stores were mixed. Some were functionally okay and some were refurbished. The last NEW one was opened in Sunny Isles north Miami Beach (1991?). Also some stores were closed and replaced (like store #223 Dadeland Mall in Miami).

I still believe W/D missed its opportunity. Every step they took was ill conceived and poorly executed. They waffled between trying to be the low price leader to upscaling their stores to parody Publix. Even their attempts for hispanic customers was laughable.

IMO.....W/D should have studied Stater Brothers in S. Cali for more effective results.
Winn Dixie acquired (most of) Goodings around the same time Pantry Pride/Food Fair went bust :). Lots of grocers targeted Florida, and I don't think Winn Dixie stood a chance. Heck, even Kroger's hesitant to enter the market. One of the companies that bought land in Florida during the late 1990s was Meijer. It never developed the land, and later sold it. Several years ago, I attended an economic conference where Hank Meijer (then its CEO) was a guest speaker, and he said that in the 1990s, the Company seriously considered entering Texas, but stuck with the "I-75 expansion route." He feels Texas was their biggest missed opportunity.

I think Texas was also Winn Dixie's biggest opportunity. If the chain would've acquired Randalls/Tom Thumb in the late 1990s, then Albertsons' stores several years later, instead of the Florida strategy it pursued, it may have suppressed the rise of the modern HEB and kept it a relevant regional player strong in Texas, Louisiana and the Gulf Coast.

Like I said, I'm surprised Winn Dixie is still around. Their stores in the Bloixi area resembled the grocery stores I remember as a little kid in the 1980s (in other words, no updates). Most have since closed. Rouses acquired one location, did a complete remodel and it has way more foot traffic than I ever saw at Winn Dixie... in spite of the fact that Rouses' prices suck.
Man...knowing Meijer wanted to go into Texas is a disappointment, would've been nice to see it instead of just Walmart around here...

...but no, Winn-Dixie really couldn't have gained ground in Texas, partially because it was on the edge of its expansion and it needed to bolster its own stores closer to home. Winn-Dixie actually skipped Houston entirely, probably because they knew that in the 1990s they'd be eaten alive by the competition (H-E-B Pantry making huge in-roads with its small but cheap stores, and Fiesta, Randalls, Kroger, Albertsons, and a host of independents filling in every other niche). They entered Bryan-College Station in the mid-1980s with two stores, but neither made huge impacts. One of them was tucked away in a strip center off of a lesser-traveled road (it's government offices now) and one of them was catty-corner to what was (at the time) one of the best performing Kroger stores in the chain (it too became a furniture store, and is now an Ace Hardware and a Planet Fitness). Their Waco stores never made headway against H-E-B, they were all in (by the 1990s) former AppleTree/Safeway stores. These too were never heavy hitters, a Fiesta and a chain of independent Mexican grocers followed one location, but the other two were never grocery again. Their Dallas-Fort Worth stores were a bit better, but their market share was pitiful compared to what Albertsons, Kroger, Tom Thumb, and even Minyard had. And with Winn-Dixie having essentially nothing larger than the Marketplace stores (which were around 45k square feet and a minority of them), while its competitors zoomed ahead with large and modern stores, from 60k square feet and up, they just weren't fit for the area.
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Re: WD Issues

Post by buckguy »

WD's problem now is being owned by venture capital and servicing debt and various management fees---they don't have the capital for really doing something about their physical plant or the flexibility to compete on price.. Their earlier problems were evident as long ago as the 80s---they no longer were the most profitable major chain and they were playing catch-up across the board.At the same time, the Davis family who liked running things on the cheap used the chain as its piggy bank and they were paying dividends well after they no longer had the earnings base to justify it. They also were hemmed in by their manufacturing---even though they sold private label goods to other chains, food processing is a low margin commodity business and as they closed stores they no longer could support all this infrastructure.

Besides Texas, they bought Thriftway in Cincinnati which didn't work out (mostly older, often outmoded locations) and, at one point, had the insane idea of moving toward DC, although they were running out of money and only got as far as Fredericksburg, VA. Wal-Mart seems to have essentially taken their old niche and they don't have the operations to compete with that. While I would agree that Publix is overrated (there are better deli bakeries but at smaller chains like Market Basket in New England or true upscalers like Heinen's in Cleveland), they operate a real alternative to Walmart and Kroger (and WD).

The long-term issues like the Davises using them as a piggy bank, their manufacturing infrastructure and their on-the-cheap model of operations prepared them poorly for Walmart's entry into food. They lacked nimbleness or a new niche where they could move and their stores were atrocious---I remember the first one I visited back in the 80s on a trip through Mississippi--an old Kroger greenhouse altered with no real investment and just dirty and poorly merchandised. Their stores when I lived in Atlanta later weren't much better. I'm surprised they aren't gone by now, but cashflow seems to enable retailers to survive well after bankruptcy and self-injury. A&P was good example of this.
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Re: WD Issues

Post by cjd »

W-D stores were often outdated. I can remember the one I shopped at with my mom back in 1993 had been built in 1973 and had absolutely no updating that I can think of. Once I heard my mom saying there were cans that had been on the shelves so long they had popped open, not to mention the dust. I don't remember any of that myself though.

It seemed to me that W-D's operation was mainly to build new stores through the region in the early to late 70s, never update them and then replace them with Marketplace stores around the 1992-96 timeframe. Those never got updated either over the years.

Where I live now most of their stores were from the mid 80s. I never cared for those stores either, as a kid there was just something I never liked about them (and at that time they were only about 10 years old). They weren't dirty or anything in particular, but I never liked going to them as much as Publix. (And I will say, it's hard to believe but the Publix in my town was actually quite run down and dumpy back then. It was built in the early 1960s and by the late 1990s had seen practically no updates and was very worn out until they finally remodeled it.)

During the 2000s W-D finally began to update most of their 70s and 80s stores that hadn't been replaced. But they were very cheap remodels consisting of simply paint, new aisle and department signage, and not much else. Some stores got new flooring, coolers, deli/bakery equipment, but it was rare.

After the Marketplace era ended in the late 1990s, W-D did built a few new stores, but it was slow going and only a few got built in the span from 2000 to the 2005 bankruptcy.

When W-D exited bankruptcy in 2006, updated their logo, shed their manufacturing facilities and began to do thorough remodels in their stores in 2008, it seemed to me they were finally on the right path. Then they started the Transformational stores around 2010, but they were too expensive to roll out store-wide and I think it would have taken updating the majority of them to that style (or at the very least the 2008+ remodel style in order to make them competitive.) The one here got the 2008 remodel but it was an early 80s store and is bordered by a late 90s former Albertsons Publix, a Walmart Supercenter across the street and an Aldi a few blocks away. It is a very slow store and lacks a pharmacy and generally smallish. The W-D in the former Sweetbay across town has a pharmacy and does a pretty good business though.

I generally don't shop at W-D anymore. I just always find something wrong when I go (sale items sold out, produce not looking as fresh as it should, etc) Also their deli and bakery is nowhere near as good as Publix, although some of their bakery items I've liked, the issue is they are not consistent. They had award winning apple pies and now they don't sell them, they had excellent cookies for a while and now they don't sell that flavor anymore.

It's just always a for the moment thing, and never establishing a consistent product or store base that you can depend on. They also seem to hire goofballs for their PR and just cannot come anywhere near the talent that Publix has in that area.

I went to Publix awhile back to buy a sandwich and chips for lunch, waiting in line and someone directed me to the customer service counter to pay. I highly doubt that would happen in a Winn Dixie, maybe not even a Transformational one.

That said I have noticed some things slipping at Publix, especially appearance wise. Untucked shirts and uniform T-shirts would never have been allowed 5-10 years ago and are now often seen. I'm not against it, and don't take an issue with it (especially being bearded myself) but facial hair and exposed tattoos are now commonly seen also and would not have been allowed either. Not that it's a bad thing, I'm just saying there are changes taking place at Publix and I'm not sure where they're going to end up reputation wise. They still have a great reputation in FL but as they expand their store base it will be interesting to see what happens.
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Re: The present and future of Randalls

Post by Bagels »

veteran+ wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 7:29 amPublix is an amazing company but with many many flaws that are well hidden and minimized because of its historical reputation. That reputation has morphed into an urban legend where they actually do Not earn that reputation in many cases.
Publix is unique in that it's developed a reputation for selling only the highest quality products, and offering a higher level of service. It was one of the first grocery chains in the country to regularly invest in upgrading its store fleet, and placing an emphasis on product presentation. I was in an old A&P in 2009 that still had the produce in the center of the store, without modern furniture/fixtures. I was in a Kroger in 2012 that still had a late 1970s/early 1980s interior, complete with the old school turnstile. You'd simply never see these things at Publix. But I agree with you - I think Publix is heavily overrated; they sell the same products as Kroger, Albertsons and Ahold Delhaize, but at a much higher price point. I do believe their deli and bakery is worthy of their high reputation, but products are priced at a premium (last year, a sandwich at a Kroger in Altanta was priced at $3.99 / $4.99 with Boar's Head, whereas a similar sandwich was priced at $6.99 with Boar's Head at Publix).

Publix, Kroger and Walmart are essential tied in market share in Atlanta, in spite of the latter's heavy investment in the market over the past decade. There aren't too many markets in the country where people are willing to pay that type of premium -- they'd fall flat on their face here in SoCal, where price is king. They're holding their own in the Southeast, even as people relocate from the Midwest/Northeast. Hence why I think Winn Dixie never stood a chance long-term -- they could never compete with Walmart on price, and they could never compete with Publix on perception of quality and service. Even if they had secured a dominate position, Walmart and Publix would've knocked them out.
pseudo3d wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 8:43 am ...but no, Winn-Dixie really couldn't have gained ground in Texas, partially because it was on the edge of its expansion and it needed to bolster its own stores closer to home. Winn-Dixie actually skipped Houston entirely, probably because they knew that in the 1990s they'd be eaten alive by the competition (H-E-B Pantry making huge in-roads with its small but cheap stores, and Fiesta, Randalls, Kroger, Albertsons, and a host of independents filling in every other niche). They entered Bryan-College Station in the mid-1980s with two stores, but neither made huge impacts. One of them was tucked away in a strip center off of a lesser-traveled road (it's government offices now) and one of them was catty-corner to what was (at the time) one of the best performing Kroger stores in the chain (it too became a furniture store, and is now an Ace Hardware and a Planet Fitness). Their Waco stores never made headway against H-E-B, they were all in (by the 1990s) former AppleTree/Safeway stores. These too were never heavy hitters, a Fiesta and a chain of independent Mexican grocers followed one location, but the other two were never grocery again. Their Dallas-Fort Worth stores were a bit better, but their market share was pitiful compared to what Albertsons, Kroger, Tom Thumb, and even Minyard had. And with Winn-Dixie having essentially nothing larger than the Marketplace stores (which were around 45k square feet and a minority of them), while its competitors zoomed ahead with large and modern stores, from 60k square feet and up, they just weren't fit for the area.
Well, I was referring to rolling the clock back to the 1990s :). Winn Dixie invested heavily in Florida, and my argument is that should they have chosen to focus on Texas instead, they may have been relevant to the industry today. Florida was a market it couldn't win. Texas was. For what they spent in Florida, they could've acquired Randalls/Tom Thumb and later stores divested from Albertsons. Ultimately, this move would've likely suppressed the rise of the modern HEB and made Winn Dixie a real player somewhere.
cjd wrote: March 23rd, 2020, 3:06 pm W-D stores were often outdated. I can remember the one I shopped at with my mom back in 1993 had been built in 1973 and had absolutely no updating that I can think of. Once I heard my mom saying there were cans that had been on the shelves so long they had popped open, not to mention the dust. I don't remember any of that myself though.
IMO, Winn Dixie has the most outdated store fleet in the country. In 2018, their stores in the Biloxi area looked straight out of the 1980s. They were doing a "summer cookout" up front, and with no customers, most everything was marked down to nothing (we didn't bite, it had probably been sitting there all evening). In contrast, the nearby Walmart Neighborhood Markets were new, beautiful stores loaded with customers (I'm jealous... they stopped building them here in SoCal, but the ones that exist are converted old buildings that are very ghetto, and hardly any of the employees speak English).
I generally don't shop at W-D anymore. I just always find something wrong when I go (sale items sold out, produce not looking as fresh as it should, etc) Also their deli and bakery is nowhere near as good as Publix, although some of their bakery items I've liked, the issue is they are not consistent. They had award winning apple pies and now they don't sell them, they had excellent cookies for a while and now they don't sell that flavor anymore.
That's Winn Dixie's biggest problem: they add nothing of value to the market. Outside of New Orleans (and even that's decreasing), they don't really dominate any market. Their pricing and promotions are mediocre. Their deli and bakery products are just average, something you might grab if you're in there anyway but nothing you'd go out of the way for. Meanwhile, people do make special trips into places like Publix for their deli and bakery.
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Re: WD Issues

Post by veteran+ »

Unless things have changed (at least in S. Florida), FRESH was not a calling card for Publix (this includes deli and bakery).

What W/D did NOT do was capitalize on their long standing history with their "Beef People" reputation and their down home basic folks appeal (sort of like Stater Brother's). The customers that represent that demographic went to Walmart because W/D was spending all their time trying to be something they were NOT.

Most of those "Beef People" customers moved to other areas or traveled to Walmart.

W/D knew their customer base very well but made decisions that did not serve that base. New management and new ownership just made it worse!
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