Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

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TW-Upstate NY
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by TW-Upstate NY »

The very limited knowledge I have of Weis is they don't keep a store open very long if it isn't successful. Case in point-they opened a store adjacent to a K-Mart in Dickson City, Pa. sometime in 1974 with the K-Mart opening in the fall of 1973. The K-Mart was very successful but despite their best efforts Weis just couldn't make a go of it and closed in around three years or so. Interestingly enough, I don't believe that space was ever occupied by a grocer ever again.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by BatteryMill »

mjhale wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 6:01 pm
I remember when Weis moved into the DC market the first time around int he late 80s and early 90s. Germantown and Gaithersburg in MD and Chantilly, Centreville, Manassas and Woodbridge in VA. My family was familiar with Weis since my mother is from PA. Other than that there was zero reason back then to go to Weis especially with Giant at its ascendancy. Even now visiting a Weis store I see nothing that is different, nothing to set them apart. Weis closed their Walnut Hill Shopping Center Gaithersburg, MD store in 2020. They picked up this store from Food Lion. Weis also closed one of the two Food Lion stores they got in Culpeper and a store around Fredericksburg. Seems like Weis once again is having trouble with the DC market. Weis only seems to do well in more rural markets where there isn't a lot of competition. With Ahold being very strong in Winchester I'm not sure Weis would be able to make a go of it.
That expansion downwards at the time was sure interesting, even before Giant was to fall. I know there was a location planned in Leesburg at one time as well.

Food Lion has had some tough shoes to fill wherever they were divested to Ahold chains, which goes back to the main point. And I do guess that's why Winchester needs a more solid competitor.
storewanderer wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 6:52 pm
Weis seems to just not quite do things well enough. They don't have the best prices, best merchandising, or best fresh departments. They aren't so bad they flop, but not good enough for anyone to get excited about. Some of their newer stores were/are large and modern enough but somehow it still feels like something is lacking. Their rural and medium sized stores are really a step back in time, but appear to work better. I think there are reasons beyond family control that Weis was never acquired by a larger chain. Similar to how we have a few regional chains out west of 100+ stores that never got acquired.

Weis took over those terrible Mars Stores around Baltimore. Anything would have been an improvement over the joke known as Mars.

Weis and Ingles strike me as very similar.
That is a shame to hear about Weis, I do hope they step up their game. In that case, I am guessing location or lack of equal competition may be their only major draws. Although Ingles gets quite the fanfare in its dominant areas, such as in western NC for instance.

How was Mars a weak operation? Haven't heard much around that way.
TW-Upstate NY wrote: May 4th, 2021, 10:09 am The very limited knowledge I have of Weis is they don't keep a store open very long if it isn't successful. Case in point-they opened a store adjacent to a K-Mart in Dickson City, Pa. sometime in 1974 with the K-Mart opening in the fall of 1973. The K-Mart was very successful but despite their best efforts Weis just couldn't make a go of it and closed in around three years or so. Interestingly enough, I don't believe that space was ever occupied by a grocer ever again.
Goes along with the few Food Lions they've claimed, that's for true. I believe the Centreville, VA location was like this as well (opened 1988, closed by 1997).
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by buckguy »

Weis once was the most profitable super market chain in the country, except for Winn-Dixie. When they encountered more competition, they became less profitable and there was a time about 10-15 years ago when a faction within the Weis family wanted to sell. Not entirely sure how that got worked out.

They do seem pretty idiosyncratic in the way they operate. They opened a store in NW New Jersey about 10 or so years ago and then closed it a couple years later. Shop-Rite made a go of that store, but when the A&P nearby was for sale, Weis bought it and the store is still in business. The Food Lion purchases were odd--coming back to Gaithersburg? And one store only lasted a year. They also bought stores from Mars in Baltimore and have locations very close together in suburbs that have seen better days, the kind of places they usually avoid. I wonder how long those stores will last. Ditto, the multiple stores in Fredericksburg. Weis has been building larger stores, but they also have been buying one-off small independents in small towns.

It's a bit odd that they've never moved W of Altoona---most of the towns in Western PA have seen better days but you could say that about much of their range and some of the places where they've bought independents. Either nothing has presented itself that was an indie buy or perhaps they have a handshake agreement with Giant Eagle (unlikely because they overlap in Maryland) or see Giant Eagle as too dominant in Western PA.
Last edited by buckguy on July 10th, 2021, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by BillyGr »

buckguy wrote: May 16th, 2021, 6:51 pm They do seem pretty idiosyncratic in the way they operate. They opened a store in NW New Jersey about 10 or so years ago and then closed it a couple years later. Shop-Rite made a go of that store, but when the A&P nearby was for sale, Weis bought it and the store is still in business.
From what was mentioned/written at the time, that original store was in a rather hard to access plaza. ShopRite (being a more known name in NJ) was able to make it work, as people would figure out how to get to it with that name, where they didn't bother to do so (or didn't bother to do so more than to check it out once) when it was Weis.

Seems that makes sense, given that they now have a Weis store that is (apparently) doing OK in the same area, just one that people actually can get to more easily.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by BatteryMill »

buckguy wrote: May 16th, 2021, 6:51 pm Weis once was the most profitable super market chain in the country, except for Winn-Dixie. When they encountered more competition, they became less profitable and there was a time about 10-15 years ago when a faction within the Weis family wanted to sell. Not entirely sure how that got worked out.

They do seem pretty idiosyncratic in the way they operate. They opened a store in NW New Jersey about 10 or so years ago and then closed it a couple years later. Shop-Rite made a go of that store, but when the A&P nearby was for sale, Weis bought it and the store is still in business. The Food Lion purchases were odd--coming back to Gaithersburg? And one store only lasted a year. They also bought stores from Mars in Baltimore and have locations very close together in suburbs that have seen better days, the kind of places they usually avoid. I wonder how long those stores will last. Ditto, the multiple stores in Fredericksburg. Weis has been building larger stores, but they also have been buying one-off small independents in small towns.

It's a bit odd that they've never moved W of Altoona---most of the towns in Western PA have seen better days but you could say that about much of their range and some of the places where they've bought independents. Either nothing has presented itself was an indie buy or perhaps they have a handshake agreement with Giant Eagle (unlikely because they overlap in Maryland) or see Giant Eagle as too dominant in Western PA.
Wow... I did not know that! I'm guessing that would have to do with their towns not having too much competition, somewhat like Food Lion's rural placement.

And wow... it sure is interesting to seem them return and play around with ShopRite. They've closed several of their Food Lion locations, from Baltimore to Fredericksburg. The Fredericksburg/Stafford has also been rather interesting, as Walmart NM and Publix have stepped in to fill the area's respective traditional-grocery voids.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by buckguy »

Giant has multiple stores in Fredericksburg, so Weis has to deal with them in terms of the mid-market niche.

Fredericksburg probably has an interesting history with chains. Winn-Dixie was there very briefly before their first bankruptcy. Safeway was there as was Ukorp's. I wouldn't be surpised if Colonial and/or Food Fair reached there in the distant past.

Weis left Albany, NY after a short time, but they seem to have done OK in Allentown-Bethelehem and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton which are sizable markets and able to support Wegman's and Whole Foods. Even smaller places in their range like Lancaster and Harrisburg have Wegman's. They seem willing to take chances but probably aren't focused and aggressive enough to tailor themselves to always adapt successfully to different markets. The one advantage they had in the DC area was slightly lower prices than Giant and Safeway.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by BillyGr »

buckguy wrote: May 19th, 2021, 1:08 pm Weis left Albany, NY after a short time, but they seem to have done OK in Allentown-Bethelehem and Wilkes-Barre/Scranton which are sizable markets and able to support Wegman's and Whole Foods.
They bought an existing chain in the Albany area (Albany Public Markets) in 1967 (there used to be a Weis history site that had the annual report mentioning that purchase) and sold those stores to Grand Union in the mid 1980's, so that wasn't too short of a run (17 or 18 years).

They never used the Weis name on the stores themselves, but did have Weis labelled items in store. As far as I know they only had their own (Weis) branded stores in Kingston and Newburgh (which lasted into at least the later 1990's or early 2000 range) as the next closest locations to the Albany cluster.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by buckguy »

They used to keep established names on chains they had bought like King's and Mr. Z's which were in PA, I believe, but then they transitioned those to Weis and stopped keeping old names as when they bought the southern tier Giant chain.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by BatteryMill »

buckguy wrote: May 19th, 2021, 1:08 pm Giant has multiple stores in Fredericksburg, so Weis has to deal with them in terms of the mid-market niche.

Fredericksburg probably has an interesting history with chains. Winn-Dixie was there very briefly before their first bankruptcy. Safeway was there as was Ukorp's. I wouldn't be surpised if Colonial and/or Food Fair reached there in the distant past.
That is true, although Weis is somewhat of a weak competitor given the parameters we've discussed, along with not having done much to update their stores (Bloom decor still remains at several) or provide something special. This loops back around to the main topic, where Martin's is the only such store left after Shop 'n Save has dried up.

Fxburg is an interesting market that's for sure. My friends have essentially dubbed the Rappahannock River as the border for the Southern grocery market.
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Re: Winchester/Front Royal: Martin's Monopoly?

Post by mjhale »

BatteryMill wrote: May 21st, 2021, 6:22 pm
buckguy wrote: May 19th, 2021, 1:08 pm Giant has multiple stores in Fredericksburg, so Weis has to deal with them in terms of the mid-market niche.

Fredericksburg probably has an interesting history with chains. Winn-Dixie was there very briefly before their first bankruptcy. Safeway was there as was Ukorp's. I wouldn't be surpised if Colonial and/or Food Fair reached there in the distant past.
That is true, although Weis is somewhat of a weak competitor given the parameters we've discussed, along with not having done much to update their stores (Bloom decor still remains at several) or provide something special. This loops back around to the main topic, where Martin's is the only such store left after Shop 'n Save has dried up.

Fxburg is an interesting market that's for sure. My friends have essentially dubbed the Rappahannock River as the border for the Southern grocery market.
I recall reading perhaps over on the Acme Style blog that Weis does not remodel acquired stores until they absolutely know things are going to work out. This isn't anything new for Weis. In the 90s when I was at Shippensburg University Weis bought the local Cresslers chain. Cresslers had just built a modern supermerket south of town which Weis wanted as a replacement for their aging, small store northeast of town in the then Kmart Shopping Center. It wasn't until a good five years or so later that I recall that Weis actually took down the Cresslers interior and made the store look like a Weis. (Side Note: The Cresslers in Chambersburg was originally built in the 1950 or 60s as another grocery store that I don't recall. The store was on Route 30 near the hospital and was demolished for a new build Walgreens.)

My guess is that the stores that Weis acquired that have not received any interior work from Weis and are not the only game in town will go quietly either when the lease is up or when Weis' operation agreement as a part of the Ahold-Delhaize divestitures expires. I suppose Weis thought this might be another opportunity to get out of their PA stronghold. But it seems they just can't do that much in suburban areas when there is competition. To bring this back to Winchester, perhaps if Weis wants to expand they should continue down I-81. That area is similar to what they are used to operating in. The next major town down I-81 from Martinsburg is of course Winchester.

Lastly regarding Fredericksburg, I completely agree with you. Winn-Dixie stopped in Fredericksburg. So did Ukrops. And Publix did too until their recent Stafford location opened. For a long time the only Wal-Mart Supercenters near the southern DC area were in Culpeper and Fredericksburg. Interestingly Giant still has Fredericksburg locations but I believe they wanted to offload those and keep the Food Lion locations until the community protested. I've always thought that for retail, and especially grocery that Fredericksburg is the last stop before the DC market. If this is really true I have to wonder when Publix will finally make a stab at DC proper.
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