Nordstrom exiting Canada

Predicting the demise of Sears & Kmart since 2017!
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by storewanderer »

buckguy wrote: March 14th, 2023, 3:12 pm

Dillard has done well recently because they could sell more full price merchandise until recently but they put out a warning for the near future. They continue to buy back stock to inflate the dividend rather than invest in the stores. Before COVID, their profit margin was cratering because of more promotional activity. They only recently came up with an app and have been an online laggard.
Dillard's has gotten more promotional but it is okay for them. They do not have the massive debt load of these other department store chains. They can take some margin hits if that is what is needed to generate revenue to help them with their dividend payments.

Dillard's is absolutely investing in its store base. A new store opens here and there and existing stores are being maintained by their in-house construction company. The "Outlet" stores are not maintained as those are obviously going to close when they can figure out a way to divest the property or on the few leased ones get through the rest of the lease.

Do you actually think these department store chains are profitable on their online sales? Which of the chains have claimed they are profitable on online sales? We hear Macys brag what percent of their sales are online but are they saying anything about profitability of those sales? Or return rate on those sales? Dillard's has made the right move from a profit perspective not getting too caught up in the online mess. Similar to Ross and Burlington not doing online sales either. Dillard's website is not good and I think they'd be better off eliminating online sales entirely. Luckily for customers who can go to a Dillard's store they can have a good experience and hopefully the chain redeems itself from its poor online site.

Dillard's focuses heavily on "return rate" - are you aware how high the return rate is on online clothing purchases? For some retailers the return rate is close to 50%. Even if you try to get the customer to pay return shipping (and piss them off doing so and ensure they will never shop you online or in store again) just the product handling alone turns this into a loss making activity.

Dillard's is doing a great job managing their assets. If they continue the current path and do not let activist shareholders or private equity get into their affairs they can continue to run their company in this manner for decades to come.

Dillards stock has also had an exceptional run since COVID. March 1, 2020 the stock was around $10. Now it is $332 (off from a bloated high of 417 not long ago). I think the stock is really bloated badly. But the company has an extremely strong balance sheet.
We won't even talk about how Macys stock has done since COVID (okay it is up 4 times from its low).
Or how Nordstrom stock has done since COVID (basically flat from March 2020 to now).
User avatar
retailfanmitchell019
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 891
Joined: November 10th, 2019, 11:17 am
Location: 760 area code
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 57 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by retailfanmitchell019 »

ClownLoach wrote: March 3rd, 2023, 2:08 pm
IGA is very mixed because of the independence of owners. I saw a few very busy stores, one near McGill downtown that felt similar to a urban Whole Foods. Others skew very much to their local clientele. I was very surprised when I visited an IGA in Montréal near Snowdon that was maybe 25,000 Sq ft but had a massive kosher section with separate meats, deli etc. and on site Rabbi. I didn't think this was quite as much of a Jewish neighborhood as others. Only went in a Metro once and it was disappointing, dirty and small. New large format Provigo (Loblaw nameplate) are beautiful stores I love to walk through but they don't feel like they are busy enough to justify their square footage, usually would see maybe four registers open out of 20+. Other Loblaw discount brands like Maxi & Cie were busier. Maxi is the No Frills type banner in Montréal. I am not sure if Super C (another price impact format) is Sobeys or Metro but it also has a decent following; their location across from Marche Atwater does very well as it fills in the basket for those buying fresh produce and meats across the street. Outside of bakery and core deli (meats/cheeses) the prepared meal concept is not a winning business in many of these stores. Provigo pushes them the most with some pizza counters and sandwich bars but I just don't see the traffic there despite the product looking really good.

My perception is that Walmart, IGA and Costco are the three busiest food chains. Loblaw varies from one format to another and Metro seemed to bring up the rear. Different feeling in Vancouver where the Real Canadian Superstore format was very busy; I haven't spent as much time there or in Ottawa.


Shoppers Drug Mart (Pharmaprix) is a very well run drugstore that has pricing as good as the core Loblaw stores. Do not underestimate the volume these little stores do or their impact on the marketplace. They are not much larger than an American drugstore like CVS or Walgreens but I wouldn't blink if you told me they did 10X the volume of either of those US chains, and I don't think they do more than 10% of their business in foods either. I would compare them to Thrifty, Savon or Longs when they existed as far as being a store where you could shop there vs a big box and get just as good of deals on your household goods. Today American drugstores have given up all hope to regain the share they've lost to Target and Walmart so they just price gouge and act as glorified 7-Elevens that sell drugs and HBA. I am sure on a sales per square foot metric Shoppers/Pharmaprix is more productive than Loblaw grocery stores.

Alcohol is in state run stores so not a factor in grocery shopping.

So a very different type of market to understand.
This should be split into a separate topic, but...


I've never been to Canada (yet) but from what I've heard, Canadian grocers have higher quality standards than US stores, even Walmart up there has higher quality food than a typical US supermarket (Albertsons, Kroger, etc).
You've mentioned in the topic about Taco Bell closing Quebec locations, that Canada bans chemicals, artificial ingredients, and GMOs used in American food.

IGA in Canada is franchised out by Sobeys (except for most of BC). Sobeys is based in Nova Scotia- their stores were mostly in Atlantic Canada until they acquired Oshawa Group in 1999, who franchised IGA everywhere except BC (they divested stores to Loblaw in Atlantic Canada to prevent a Sobeys monopoly in that region). Most IGA stores in Western Canada and Ontario were then gradually converted to the Sobeys name.
IGA runs an "Extra" format in Quebec. Stores look similar in size to a Ralphs. Looking at pictures online, IGA Quebec stores are mostly nice looking, with beautiful store interiors.

Super C is owned by Metro, not Sobeys. As for Metro, looking at pictures, some of those stores are definitely more pedestrian looking, like a typical Albertsons or Kroger. Some Metro stores look very nice though.
Metro was for sale back in 2000, with (gasp) Albertsons and Kroger possibly looking at buying them: https://www.supermarketnews.com/archive/canada-outlook
That never happened. Metro is much more successful now, I can imagine. They gained a presence in Ontario by acquiring A&P's Canadian operations, winning a bidding war against Sobeys to acquire A&P Canada, gradually converting those stores to the Metro name (while keeping the Food Basics discount format). Metro recently acquired drugstore chain Jean Coutu Group (who owned Eckerd in its final years).

Loblaws had stores under its namesake banner in Quebec in the past, but converted them to Provigo (probably as that name is more well-known in Quebec). Looking at pictures, I found a Provigo Le Marche store in Boucherville, a Montreal suburb. You can't tell you are in a traditional supermarket.
All in all, it seems traditional supermarkets in Canada put our boring Albertsons/Kroger stores to shame. They could learn a few tricks from the Canadians.
jamcool
Store Manager
Store Manager
Posts: 1019
Joined: March 5th, 2009, 10:27 pm
Been thanked: 50 times
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by jamcool »

Canadians pay more for groceries than Americans, and there are several lawsuits up there accusing the main operators up there of fixing prices.
User avatar
norcalriteaidclerk
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 542
Joined: August 22nd, 2010, 1:01 am
Location: 916/279 area code complex
Has thanked: 63 times
Been thanked: 42 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by norcalriteaidclerk »

jamcool wrote: March 28th, 2023, 10:53 pm Canadians pay more for groceries than Americans, and there are several lawsuits up there accusing the main operators up there of fixing prices.
Even with the Canadian dollar being worth quite a bit less than the greenback?
For your life,Thrifty and Payless have got it.
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by storewanderer »

retailfanmitchell019 wrote: March 28th, 2023, 9:57 pm


I've never been to Canada (yet) but from what I've heard, Canadian grocers have higher quality standards than US stores, even Walmart up there has higher quality food than a typical US supermarket (Albertsons, Kroger, etc).
You've mentioned in the topic about Taco Bell closing Quebec locations, that Canada bans chemicals, artificial ingredients, and GMOs used in American food.

IGA in Canada is franchised out by Sobeys (except for most of BC). Sobeys is based in Nova Scotia- their stores were mostly in Atlantic Canada until they acquired Oshawa Group in 1999, who franchised IGA everywhere except BC (they divested stores to Loblaw in Atlantic Canada to prevent a Sobeys monopoly in that region).


All in all, it seems traditional supermarkets in Canada put our boring Albertsons/Kroger stores to shame. They could learn a few tricks from the Canadians.
IGA in Vancouver is controlled by the group that owns London Drugs. Not great stores. London Drugs is excellent so I was surprised how poor their IGA is. I didn't notice any Sobey involvement with the IGA, I must have missed it (didn't have Sobeys private labels, or registers) but the Sobey involvement explains why the IGA was lousy.

Grocery stores in Canada are rather different yet similar to the US. Keep in mind Safeway was very successful there and it was a US Safeway perimeter with expanded bakery (identical to US on deli/produce/meat), and a very modified grocery center store (but largely identical non food mix to a US Safeway). There was a reason Safeway was so successful there- it offered more than most of the Canadian operators did. Loblaw getting better and better was probably about to slaughter Safeway even had it stayed under US ownership who ran it infinitely better than Sobey runs it, so it is possible Safeway US knew when to time the sale.

There seem to be fewer sizes of products in Canadian Stores. There is noticeably less dairy product. There is a lot more of anything bakery like (bread, packs of cookies, etc.).

Demographics are a big reason for the differences. Depending where you are in Canada you will see a huge assortment of Asian food or you may see almost none depending on demographics. You will see little to no Hispanic food anywhere. I also find other ethnic foods like Italian and such specialty items to be quite lacking in Canada. Frozen food variety in Canada is significantly lower than in the US.

Produce quality varies by chain just like in the US. Produce pricing in Canada is a LOT higher.

Really there are two elements of Canadian grocery I miss compared to the US; the PC brand at Loblaw Stores, and the expanded bakery offer at every chain with more in-store prep. Pricing varies by category some items cost more in Canada (mostly dairy/meat), many cost the same, and some (mostly canned type items) do for some reason cost less in Canada.
Romr123
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 693
Joined: February 1st, 2021, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 56 times
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by Romr123 »

You cannot say with certainty that standards overall are universally higher in CA than the US...things are just different.

For instance, in Canada, milk and cream comes from mammals, so plant "milks" are "beverages" or "drinks". Likewise, Coffee-Mate is not "creamer" but "whitener". Addition of pectin to jams/jellies must be disclosed. Protein levels in cold cuts need to be disclosed (rather than inferred as in the US...with "ham" "ham with natural juices" "ham with water added" "ham and water product").

Conversely, starch/breadcrumbs are routinely added to Canadian sausages/hotdogs (they take after the UK custom).

Protein levels in flours are higher in Canada than the US (Robin Hood is a stronger flour than Gold Medal)...but that is not better or worse, just different (Robin Hood all purpose is equivalent to Gold Medal Better for Bread...Robin Hood Pastry is more like Gold Medal all purpose...and so on)

Canada seems to do a lot more in-store baking of frozen doughs...they seem to have mastered that more-so than the US.

The regionalization of selection is a thing in Canada--for instance SW Ontario has quite a good selection of Italian ingredients (canned goods/pasta/etc). The Asian stores have pretty well-developed supply chains--Loblaw has helped with this.

The lack of population density has led to a more concentrated, I'd say, wholesale sector (where Loblaw and Metro both supply their own stores as well as wholesale to independents; regionally dependent of course).
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by storewanderer »

Romr123 wrote: March 29th, 2023, 8:53 am You cannot say with certainty that standards overall are universally higher in CA than the US...things are just different.

For instance, in Canada, milk and cream comes from mammals, so plant "milks" are "beverages" or "drinks". Likewise, Coffee-Mate is not "creamer" but "whitener". Addition of pectin to jams/jellies must be disclosed. Protein levels in cold cuts need to be disclosed (rather than inferred as in the US...with "ham" "ham with natural juices" "ham with water added" "ham and water product").

Conversely, starch/breadcrumbs are routinely added to Canadian sausages/hotdogs (they take after the UK custom).

Protein levels in flours are higher in Canada than the US (Robin Hood is a stronger flour than Gold Medal)...but that is not better or worse, just different (Robin Hood all purpose is equivalent to Gold Medal Better for Bread...Robin Hood Pastry is more like Gold Medal all purpose...and so on)

Canada seems to do a lot more in-store baking of frozen doughs...they seem to have mastered that more-so than the US.

The regionalization of selection is a thing in Canada--for instance SW Ontario has quite a good selection of Italian ingredients (canned goods/pasta/etc). The Asian stores have pretty well-developed supply chains--Loblaw has helped with this.

The lack of population density has led to a more concentrated, I'd say, wholesale sector (where Loblaw and Metro both supply their own stores as well as wholesale to independents; regionally dependent of course).
The McDonalds ice cream soft serve sure tastes better in Canada than it does in the US...

One of the things that irks me when I go to Canada is that unsweetened iced tea is not a standard offer. You can always find it at Starbucks and sit down restaurants are hit and miss on having it, but fast food and other take away type places simply do not offer unsweetened iced tea there. Chipotle was at one point but I guess due to few customers taking it ended up stopping the brewing urn. There are a couple bottled ones but they are expensive and I prefer a fresh brew. I can get hot tea (which is more readily available than in the US) and let it sit around a while and get ice but it is not as convenient for sure. Then there is the strange A&W chain there that does not offer ice at all. Definitely some quirks up at Canada. Some things I like better than the US and other things I just am confused.
BillyGr
Store Manager
Store Manager
Posts: 1579
Joined: October 5th, 2010, 7:33 pm
Been thanked: 58 times
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by BillyGr »

norcalriteaidclerk wrote: March 28th, 2023, 11:21 pm
jamcool wrote: March 28th, 2023, 10:53 pm Canadians pay more for groceries than Americans, and there are several lawsuits up there accusing the main operators up there of fixing prices.
Even with the Canadian dollar being worth quite a bit less than the greenback?
Seems that would make sense - just to sell an item for the same price, it would be more of their dollars (that is, an item priced $1 in the US would be $1.xx in Canada).
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by storewanderer »

BillyGr wrote: March 30th, 2023, 3:40 pm
norcalriteaidclerk wrote: March 28th, 2023, 11:21 pm
jamcool wrote: March 28th, 2023, 10:53 pm Canadians pay more for groceries than Americans, and there are several lawsuits up there accusing the main operators up there of fixing prices.
Even with the Canadian dollar being worth quite a bit less than the greenback?
Seems that would make sense - just to sell an item for the same price, it would be more of their dollars (that is, an item priced $1 in the US would be $1.xx in Canada).
I think the main reason prices in Canada are higher overall is due to much higher dairy and meat pricing in Canada than in the US. The US puts out a ton of farm subsidies which do cut the cost of those items to all consumers. Canada does not have so many subsidies. Canada also is somewhat protective of its market in an effort to ensure its farmers are paid what is deemed "enough" and part of helping that effort is not allowing import of many of those items into Canada.

Canned/packaged goods in Canada come out as good or lower than the US. Things like spices, coffee, tea, etc. seem priced the same. Imported Asian foods are noticeably cheaper in Canada than on the US west coast also.
Romr123
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 693
Joined: February 1st, 2021, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 56 times
Status: Offline

Re: Nordstrom exiting Canada

Post by Romr123 »

Sugar, on the other hand, is subsidized in the US but not in Canada, so sugar and sugar intensive things (hard candy, etc) are cheaper in Canada. Promo/loss leader pricing for branded items (Tide, Bounty, etc) is pretty identical (so cheaper in Canada)...
Post Reply