Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

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Re: Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

Post by Romr123 »

Echo what you're saying about the "clean" fries--the cut in-house aspect of things is a key differentiator. You can argue that single-fried isn't an optimal handling (double-frying creates crispiness) but they have their process. I don't love I&O but I do respect them (I much prefer a well-run Steak and Shake, but was raised a Midwestern boy)

The clean-oil aspect of things----oil stays clean (and you can optimize filtration) when you're not running elevendy-three different things through the fryers. Back in my KFC days stores cooking chicken in entirely fresh oil could barely get it brown enough to be acceptable--the oil had to darken/age to get the color optimum. That doesn't even mention the challenges of flavor transfer from, say spicy chicken (after all capsaicin/piperine are both fat-soluble)


I would think that they probably -don't- have a sophisticated HQ lab with oil chemists/food technologists and they're "on their own" a bit for creating processes (with only the support of their oil supplier...P&G/Bunge/...) to help optimize. Say it or not, Simplot/OreIda/... have squads of those type food technologists to optimize and perfect what is put out in the restaurants.

They also don't have squads of franchisees picking apart the process for local optimization. Say what you will about a franchise model, but the different incentives of franchisee/franchisor does create a creative tension which creates optimal conditions in a dispersed manufacturing environment (which is all that a franchise restaurant is)

Contrast with, say KFC which (when I worked at HQ 35 years ago) had a pretty deep bench of food technologists/engineers/... to optimize/perfect all aspects of the offering (my best example was in those days with in-store baked biscuits, the best biscuits were high-altitude biscuits...in places like Denver and New Mexico the biscuits were ethereal--they used a 5 pound bag of packaged self-rising flour as their normal unit of production, and it was too difficult to specify a "low leavening" SKU for the high-altitude stores.
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Re: Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

Post by veteran+ »

storewanderer wrote: May 10th, 2023, 9:12 pm
veteran+ wrote: May 10th, 2023, 8:59 am If you actually worked inside an I&O and are not a "cult" member, I believe you would have a different viewpoint.

They know they have a fries problem...........they do nothing.

They know they have an ordering problem (inside counter, drive through and tablet outside) and they do nothing.

They know they have a milk shake dispenser problem and they do nothing.

And that is just some of the problems they know about. BUT...........................if they are making bank, then it's okay.

I have seen this behavior in top notch companies before. There is usually a reckoning unless there is a strong intervention. That reckoning can take a long time.

Perhaps their cult following will give them long tenure and bountiful profits inspite of their stubborn 1950s operation stuck in cement.

Yes, their customer service is excellent!
What do you think the specific issues with the In N Out ordering process are vs. the ordering process as competitors McDonalds, Burger King, Carls, or Jack in the Box? I find In N Out's ordering process to be the same or more efficient (depending on line length) as those competitors selling the same product. I know there are some system quirks that make modifying orders harder than it could/should be but that system is a standard restaurant software used by a lot of different chains all over the world like the IBM Supermarket Software you see so many grocers use and there are a lot of quirks to these softwares that aren't the most efficient and never change.

I took a look at the milkshake machine again in Reno. There are three separate nozzles/levers to pull. One nozzle/lever for each flavor. No rinsing or anything between cups dispensed. It sounds like newer units are getting different equipment. In that case I'd say they tried to change something and screwed up. They need to go back to the machine with a nozzle for each flavor. I am guessing it is a lot harder to clean the machine in Reno, but that shouldn't matter with the very high sales volume they do, they have the labor to do proper cleaning of a 3 nozzle shake machine.

I am torn on the fries. To get the fries changed would involve increased food processing and potentially additional ingredients (even chemicals) to get the fries consistent with other chains. And look at how many times over the years Burger King and Wendy's (I think Carl's has only done it once) have "relaunched" their fries promising them to be better, crispier, the best fry ever, etc., yet every time the same old inconsistencies as before continue long after the roll out of the new fries that were supposed to reinvent the fry (and the new fries always seem to be processed more, contain strange coatings, saltier, etc.). So my suspicion is In N Out could reinvent the fries and piss off the segment of customers who actually like the current fries. Also I think there is something about the potato being fresh cut in unit (visible from drive through and visible from front counter to customers) that emphasizes the "fresh" and "simple preparation" hallmarks of the chain.

I do think they should be consistent on the potato type and do the cold water rinse process after cutting/before frying (but you are supposed to hold them a while), they could also par-fry the fries (like Five Guys- but that place has very inconsistent fry quality too). I also do think they need to address fry waste- should be zero waste unless someone drops a container on the floor.

At this point I take the In N Out fries as a "clean" ingredient fry. At least as clean as you can get for a fry. It is a potato, oil, and salt. Period. Nothing else. I know there are dirty chemical label fries available basically everywhere else that are likely to taste much better. Also something else I will say is the oil always tastes clean on In N Out fries. I've never had them where they have a bad oil taste, old oil taste, etc.
So you are saying tasty fries are a function of chemicals and clean fries are always lousy tasting? Interesting...........

The ordering system in store is the opposite of outstore. I believe you delete options in store and add options out store or vice versa. Out store has different codes as well. Pictures of foods give customers the wrong impression of what they are ordering and what comes with it. Many errors are made and many orders get thrown out because their policy says to start over again.

My friend takes orders at the counter, the drive through and the outside tablet. He says it's a cluster XXXX. Everyone says that's just the way it is and shrugs. Customers often also complain that the food is not hot (so that gets thrown away as well and started over again).

He also notes that the dining area is too small for the volume. As fast as he (and others) cleans up, it's not fast enough and people are sometimes waiting with food in hand near people not finished eating. Some customers go back to the counter asking for fresh hot food because they are waiting so long for a table. BTW.........not sure why but the mess customers leave behind is like a tornado.

Any suggestions by the employees about anything seem to go nowhere. Despite this all seem very happy and deliver superior customer service.

My friend is a mature person who was a former HR Director. Lost his job due to merger stuff and is working there while looking and interviewing for another HR job. He is not an exaggerator. He is an inexperienced fast food person but also unbiased. His observations are silent (except telling me) but he does asks questions.
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Re: Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

Post by storewanderer »

Romr123 wrote: May 11th, 2023, 5:07 am Echo what you're saying about the "clean" fries--the cut in-house aspect of things is a key differentiator. You can argue that single-fried isn't an optimal handling (double-frying creates crispiness) but they have their process. I don't love I&O but I do respect them (I much prefer a well-run Steak and Shake, but was raised a Midwestern boy)

The clean-oil aspect of things----oil stays clean (and you can optimize filtration) when you're not running elevendy-three different things through the fryers. Back in my KFC days stores cooking chicken in entirely fresh oil could barely get it brown enough to be acceptable--the oil had to darken/age to get the color optimum. That doesn't even mention the challenges of flavor transfer from, say spicy chicken (after all capsaicin/piperine are both fat-soluble)



They also don't have squads of franchisees picking apart the process for local optimization.
The "clean" fries count for something in my mind. There is no R&D because the process is basically a dummy process. Peel potato, rinse the whole potato barrel, cut it and throw into fryer. I think they also state they use 100% vegetable oil (may be wrong) which again other chains tinker with oil type.

The entire product mix is far tastier at Steak N Shake and until recently it was also priced similar if not lower (that isn't the case anymore). Real shame what is happening with Steak N Shake. I just wish they had more long-term franchisees who had that 8-10 unit type model who are doing a good job to help keep the chain going/relevant. There are a few out there like the original franchisee in IL and the one out in MO and another one down in the South I can't recall the name of. I am concerned with this sell units to operators for $10k model and based on their still- corporate run unit in Sheridan, CO and how it is run (and priced.. 7.99 shake and 5.60 single burger... ordered from a kiosk.. in what feels like a bus station level cleanliness dining room) at the present time, they clearly are not able to properly run corporate units.

This is true on franchisees, over the years franchisees ideas likely straight from the front line employees have built a lot of menus out for a lot of restaurant chains/fast food chains. But that was a unique class of franchisees, the "owner-operator" franchisees who actually did spend their time operating their units... current franchisees more and more seem to be "absentee owner" "investor" franchisees.
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Re: Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: May 11th, 2023, 9:01 am

So you are saying tasty fries are a function of chemicals and clean fries are always lousy tasting? Interesting...........

The ordering system in store is the opposite of outstore. I believe you delete options in store and add options out store or vice versa. Out store has different codes as well. Pictures of foods give customers the wrong impression of what they are ordering and what comes with it. Many errors are made and many orders get thrown out because their policy says to start over again.

My friend takes orders at the counter, the drive through and the outside tablet. He says it's a cluster XXXX. Everyone says that's just the way it is and shrugs. Customers often also complain that the food is not hot (so that gets thrown away as well and started over again).

He also notes that the dining area is too small for the volume. As fast as he (and others) cleans up, it's not fast enough and people are sometimes waiting with food in hand near people not finished eating. Some customers go back to the counter asking for fresh hot food because they are waiting so long for a table. BTW.........not sure why but the mess customers leave behind is like a tornado.

Any suggestions by the employees about anything seem to go nowhere. Despite this all seem very happy and deliver superior customer service.

My friend is a mature person who was a former HR Director. Lost his job due to merger stuff and is working there while looking and interviewing for another HR job. He is not an exaggerator. He is an inexperienced fast food person but also unbiased. His observations are silent (except telling me) but he does asks questions.
Yes, basically clean fries are usually not very good. I say this with experience with In N Out Fries, Five Guys Fries, Wing Stop Fries (all fresh cut), and various independent restaurant attempts. The only good "clean" fries I've ever had have been at small town basque restaurants in rural Nevada, multiple times. Those places know how to make fresh cut fries. Probably using potatoes grown nearby too since not much else can grow out there.

I don't see customers bringing back orders for errors ever at these CA/NV In N Out units I go to. I am sure it happens but I am not seeing it which tells me it is one of those "few times an hour" thing as opposed to an "every 5 minutes thing." This is a real contrast to some places I go like Popeyes where some nights it seems like 20% of orders are being returned due to order errors (both inside and drive through).

I've had some food temperature issues with In N Out over the years, but not recently. They don't really have any heat lamps so it is vital that orders get delivered very efficiently.

It appears they need to turn tables faster somehow. Less wait time to receive orders may help. Faster cleaning. Or maybe they are just flat out too busy?

Also I think the issue with the mess customers leave behind is due to the format of the "tray" used. It is like a big bowl. They can fit orders for 2 or 4 people into it. So you have some people eating with no tray in front of them and no paper mat or similar.

Every chain with tablet based ordering has a different interface on the tablets than the inside cash registers. This includes Raising Canes, Chickfila, In N Out (all do not use the same registers either). I don't really know what to say beyond you have different hardware/software vendors trying to get different systems to talk to one another and it is a patchy job. Think of it like the self checkout vs. regular register employee mode. Why are the interfaces different- they shouldn't be, but they are. It is annoying, confusing to employees, makes it harder to shift employees between the two, etc. But same general thing/issue.

I don't want to come off as making excuses but a lot of these issues are issues that are not unique to In N Out and issues with restaurants and fast food in general for a variety of reasons. And I think this is why you are seeing a lot of crowds at In N Out and very high customer satisfaction despite these issues. As an extremely high volume chain you make the case that In N Out should be making changes to resolve these issues to do an even better job serving customers and I definitely agree with that. I just don't think it is going to hurt them if they don't- but it limits their potential.
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Re: Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

Post by veteran+ »

I wonder what the folks from Belgium think about their "clean fries".
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Re: Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: May 12th, 2023, 8:56 am I wonder what the folks from Belgium think about their "clean fries".
No idea. Never been there. Never had them.

More garbage free fries from McDonalds today. Undercooked, old oil taste, ate about 1/6 of the container and into the trash with the rest. At least the unsweetened iced tea was good even if it was served to me with zero ice (what little ice they put in melted before I even got the filled up cup). I asked for a cup of ice and I have no clue what they were doing but it took them 3 minutes to do that (I didn't end up using said ice).

I was actually thinking of stopping by an In N Out and doing a side by side fry comparison but when I saw the 40-50 cars at the In N Out Drive through and no parking spaces available at 7 PM, I decided to just move on.
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