Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by pseudo3d »

storewanderer wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 5:06 pm
mbz321 wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 10:40 am
storewanderer wrote: June 2nd, 2023, 8:56 am The closing store is about 5 years old and is a 2 floor store in a mall. Maybe the location and store structure were the problem?

This chain decided to implement a bag fee of 5 cents and only offer paper bags chainwide, even in areas or states with no bag regulations of any kind and no competitor other than Aldi with a bag fee. The 5 cent fee is for a non handled paper bag and they say they donate 100% of the fee to local Food Banks. Cost on paper bags is well above 5 cents so they aren't making any money on this initiative, though customers do not know that part.
It wouldn't be a post from you if you somehow didn't tie their problems into plastic/paper bag usage. :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:
Anything you do that puts you at a competitive disadvantage will cause some customer loss. You may like bogus bag fees, or maybe you just imply it, but most customers don't.

I also listed multiple other unrelated issues.
Exactly. There were things that Albertsons did that their competitors didn't and that ended up running them out of many areas. One example was copying the California policy to have only half of their lights on. So while their competitors are doing their usual business in a brightly lit store, Albertsons is trying to pull traffic in with dim lights, which only compounded existing problems (smelly seafood departments, etc.) further.

Probably the reason why Wegmans has stalled out in its crawl down the East Coast is the refusal to make adaptations to the local markets.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by mjhale »

pseudo3d wrote: June 8th, 2023, 5:07 pm Exactly. There were things that Albertsons did that their competitors didn't and that ended up running them out of many areas. One example was copying the California policy to have only half of their lights on. So while their competitors are doing their usual business in a brightly lit store, Albertsons is trying to pull traffic in with dim lights, which only compounded existing problems (smelly seafood departments, etc.) further.

Probably the reason why Wegmans has stalled out in its crawl down the East Coast is the refusal to make adaptations to the local markets.
At least in the case of the DC area, Wegmans opened their first stores when Giant-MD was weak from Ahold's own troubles, Walmart hadn't started converting stores to Supercenters and there wasn't another viable mid to high level competitor. Despite having NY influence in their brands - Upstate Farms Dairy, Perry's Ice Cream are two I remember - and their product naming with things like donuts being called frycakes, the Wegmans experience was so much better than anything else that they excelled. Now that there is a lot more competition at all levels and the local competitors have righted themselves Wegmans isn't the massive attraction that it once was. Don't get me wrong, they still attract very strong crowds but there are good other options. As Wegmans gets further from its base or areas that have knowledge of them, people aren't going to want to shop a NY state grocer that is located in NC or SC or TN. It sounds a lot like when Giant-MD tried expanding to the Philly area with their Super G stores. They were carbon copies of the stores that Giant operated in their home market down to the products that were being sold in a market that had specific tastes and brands of their own. No surprise that Super G ultimately failed in PA and NJ. Ahold closed and sold off the stores to local competitors.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by storewanderer »

mjhale wrote: June 8th, 2023, 6:07 pm

At least in the case of the DC area, Wegmans opened their first stores when Giant-MD was weak from Ahold's own troubles, Walmart hadn't started converting stores to Supercenters and there wasn't another viable mid to high level competitor. Despite having NY influence in their brands - Upstate Farms Dairy, Perry's Ice Cream are two I remember - and their product naming with things like donuts being called frycakes, the Wegmans experience was so much better than anything else that they excelled. Now that there is a lot more competition at all levels and the local competitors have righted themselves Wegmans isn't the massive attraction that it once was. Don't get me wrong, they still attract very strong crowds but there are good other options. As Wegmans gets further from its base or areas that have knowledge of them, people aren't going to want to shop a NY state grocer that is located in NC or SC or TN. It sounds a lot like when Giant-MD tried expanding to the Philly area with their Super G stores. They were carbon copies of the stores that Giant operated in their home market down to the products that were being sold in a market that had specific tastes and brands of their own. No surprise that Super G ultimately failed in PA and NJ. Ahold closed and sold off the stores to local competitors.
I just find it too much of a time investment. On my most recent trips into a territory with Wegman's, I have made one store visit only. I've had to go well out of my way to get to a location and by the time I deal with that, the parking lot, parking, etc., plus spending quite a bit of time in the store since it is so great, I have already put out 2+ hours of my time. And I am not doing a full shop by any means (which would take even longer). I also find with each passing visit their fresh offer seems less and less interesting. Again they have a great offer but it doesn't feel as good as it once was and the pricing has gone up so high that I feel like they need to do more. They seem like they haven't been innovating their fresh offer much in the past 5 or so years and if anything are cutting it back somewhat.

I always find their center store pricing to be very strong and their mix is very interesting (rather abbreviated in my opinion).

My suspicion is their ability to expand into far off geographies may not be as great as I may have thought in the past.

Meanwhile Publix continues to push into new territories with their boring format and seems to keep on expanding.

I always said the chains with a big expansion potential were Wegmans, Hy-Vee, and Publix. Obviously I like the stores put out by Wegmans and Hy-Vee so much better than Publix. But at the end of the day my money is on Publix being the chain that can keep on expanding successfully into new territories.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by BillyGr »

mjhale wrote: June 8th, 2023, 6:07 pm As Wegmans gets further from its base or areas that have knowledge of them, people aren't going to want to shop a NY state grocer that is located in NC or SC or TN.
I might suspect that they are opening in those states (at least a limited amount of stores) with the intention of capturing those who USED to live in NY (or PA or NJ where they operate) that have now moved South and will go to a familiar name if it is available.

While they haven't tried to open in FL yet, other chains (such as Cumberland and Wawa in the convenience store line) have, while skipping many or most of the states in between for a similar reason, though now the Carolinas are just as, maybe more popular in some cases for those from the North/northern Atlantic coast as Florida is.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by buckguy »

mjhale wrote: June 8th, 2023, 6:07 pm
pseudo3d wrote: June 8th, 2023, 5:07 pm Exactly. There were things that Albertsons did that their competitors didn't and that ended up running them out of many areas. One example was copying the California policy to have only half of their lights on. So while their competitors are doing their usual business in a brightly lit store, Albertsons is trying to pull traffic in with dim lights, which only compounded existing problems (smelly seafood departments, etc.) further.

Probably the reason why Wegmans has stalled out in its crawl down the East Coast is the refusal to make adaptations to the local markets.
At least in the case of the DC area, Wegmans opened their first stores when Giant-MD was weak from Ahold's own troubles, Walmart hadn't started converting stores to Supercenters and there wasn't another viable mid to high level competitor. Despite having NY influence in their brands - Upstate Farms Dairy, Perry's Ice Cream are two I remember - and their product naming with things like donuts being called frycakes, the Wegmans experience was so much better than anything else that they excelled. Now that there is a lot more competition at all levels and the local competitors have righted themselves Wegmans isn't the massive attraction that it once was. Don't get me wrong, they still attract very strong crowds but there are good other options. As Wegmans gets further from its base or areas that have knowledge of them, people aren't going to want to shop a NY state grocer that is located in NC or SC or TN. It sounds a lot like when Giant-MD tried expanding to the Philly area with their Super G stores. They were carbon copies of the stores that Giant operated in their home market down to the products that were being sold in a market that had specific tastes and brands of their own. No surprise that Super G ultimately failed in PA and NJ. Ahold closed and sold off the stores to local competitors.
North Carolina has lots of Northeastern transplants, who I'm sure appreciate finding a decent bagel in a super market,

Wegman's DC area competition may have opened more stores, but I'd disagree that they've gotten much stronger. Giant-Landover's historic strength was the deli-bakery, which was one of things that went downhill with Ahold. Giants have gotten a bit better--more realistic pricing, somewhat better service, but the bakeries and delis are nothing like they once were and they don't do the volume they once did. H-T is really nothing special and the prepared foods are just awful--none of the stores I've seen in the DC seems to do a lot of volume and I wouldn't be surprised if the Rockville Wegman's is what finally closes the anemic one in "North Bethesda". Whole Foods has always been uneven, especially in the deli-bakery and prepared foods areas. Wegman's doesn't doesn't do everything well---the pizza is almost as bad other places, but the baked goods generally are much better than anywhere else. The center store can be eccentric---heavy on the house brand in areas like pasta, but the pricing is generally good and the produce, at its best, beats Whole Foods.

Wegman's seems willing to experiment and they've had some successes like the Prince Georges County store which was something that no one else would have attempted. The Natick store sounds like it had a number of problems--the size, the multiple levels and being attached to a dying mall that was throwing a number of things against the wall to see what sticks.

A few other malls have been experimenting with destination supers, but I think these do better in a power center complex or a diversified retail corridor. Malls had supers in the 60s---sometimes as a junior anchor, sometimes in a convenience wing. Outparcel stores were common in the 70s. But all of these disappeared during the 80s. The conventional wisdom came to be that a lot of grocery shopping was part of the journey to work, which helps explain why one-stop shopping didn't work for everyone and mall stores lost ground over time. Destination stores like Wegman's theoretically could do better than this, but my guess is that they still aren't compatible with a mall trip and a store with an emphasis on perishables often is its own trip or the end of a varied shopping trip. That malls became so specialized and apparel-oriented probably makes them a poor place for a super, whereas they sometimes work in other countries, where malls have much more diversified selections of stores.

The homogenization of malls was probably a productive short-term strategy back in the 80s and 90s, but it's also a big part of why malls have died---the same stores, the same price points, and the same limited range of merchandise was really the beginning of the end, making it easier for power centers and the lifestyle centers predicated on accommodating different uses over time.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by BatteryMill »

mjhale wrote: June 8th, 2023, 6:07 pm It sounds a lot like when Giant-MD tried expanding to the Philly area with their Super G stores. They were carbon copies of the stores that Giant operated in their home market down to the products that were being sold in a market that had specific tastes and brands of their own. No surprise that Super G ultimately failed in PA and NJ. Ahold closed and sold off the stores to local competitors.
What would be some examples of product not differentiated between the Philadelphia and Washington/Baltimore markets? It's also worth noting that the PA stores were in brand new markets for Super G, and of course Giant-Carlisle took priority (the Ahold buyout not directly related to the experiment I think?). NJ might have been more of a casualty of corporate restructuring as well, this time with the operations merger between Landover and Stop & Shop.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by storewanderer »

buckguy wrote: June 9th, 2023, 7:36 pm

North Carolina has lots of Northeastern transplants, who I'm sure appreciate finding a decent bagel in a super market,

Wegman's DC area competition may have opened more stores, but I'd disagree that they've gotten much stronger. Giant-Landover's historic strength was the deli-bakery, which was one of things that went downhill with Ahold. Giants have gotten a bit better--more realistic pricing, somewhat better service, but the bakeries and delis are nothing like they once were and they don't do the volume they once did. H-T is really nothing special and the prepared foods are just awful--none of the stores I've seen in the DC seems to do a lot of volume and I wouldn't be surprised if the Rockville Wegman's is what finally closes the anemic one in "North Bethesda". Whole Foods has always been uneven, especially in the deli-bakery and prepared foods areas. Wegman's doesn't doesn't do everything well---the pizza is almost as bad other places, but the baked goods generally are much better than anywhere else. The center store can be eccentric---heavy on the house brand in areas like pasta, but the pricing is generally good and the produce, at its best, beats Whole Foods.

Wegman's seems willing to experiment and they've had some successes like the Prince Georges County store which was something that no one else would have attempted. The Natick store sounds like it had a number of problems--the size, the multiple levels and being attached to a dying mall that was throwing a number of things against the wall to see what sticks.

They can "experiment" which they seem to be doing by cutting out some fresh items, cutting quality on some fresh items like moving to cheap commodity Sara Lee deli meat for sandwiches, etc. and then they lose things that make them worth being a destination.

There is a lot of new competition and people's tastes are changing. While customers may have previously gone to the big destination Wegman's on a weekend and done all of their shopping there, now they may still go there but also go to a new ethnic store or perhaps to a Farmer's Market type of store, etc. There are a lot of options for the customer.

Am I reading it right that North Bethesda Harris Teeter has no self checkout? That is unbelievable. Even the junk low volume stores they closed around Nashville had self checkout...
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by mjhale »

BatteryMill wrote: June 9th, 2023, 9:30 pm
mjhale wrote: June 8th, 2023, 6:07 pm It sounds a lot like when Giant-MD tried expanding to the Philly area with their Super G stores. They were carbon copies of the stores that Giant operated in their home market down to the products that were being sold in a market that had specific tastes and brands of their own. No surprise that Super G ultimately failed in PA and NJ. Ahold closed and sold off the stores to local competitors.
What would be some examples of product not differentiated between the Philadelphia and Washington/Baltimore markets? It's also worth noting that the PA stores were in brand new markets for Super G, and of course Giant-Carlisle took priority (the Ahold buyout not directly related to the experiment I think?). NJ might have been more of a casualty of corporate restructuring as well, this time with the operations merger between Landover and Stop & Shop.
Several items come to mind: Selling the "national" brands of chips and pretzels like Lays and Rold Gold instead of the local PA brands like Snyders of Hanover or Herrs. Also not selling Hatfield pork products. With Hatfield I wonder if not selling the product was related to Hatfield being owned by Clemens who still would have had their grocery stores at that point. Lat one I remember was not selling a "premium" deli meat like Dietz and Watson that has it HQ in Philadelphia. The stores really and truly were exact copies of the DC area stores at the time. You thought you were back home in DC but you were really in PA or NJ.

The first Super G stores opened in 1994, a year before Izzy Cohen died. The last Super G location to open in PA or NJ was the store near King of Prussia that opened in 1998 or 1999. The FTC allowed that store as a Super G under Ahold because it had been "substantially complete" when the merger took place. The other PA stores were sold off and the store near King of Prussia lasted about 18 months and closed. The NJ Super G stores first were merged into Stop and Shop but were ultimately sold off to mostly Shop Rite owners.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by mjhale »

storewanderer wrote: June 10th, 2023, 12:34 am There is a lot of new competition and people's tastes are changing. While customers may have previously gone to the big destination Wegman's on a weekend and done all of their shopping there, now they may still go there but also go to a new ethnic store or perhaps to a Farmer's Market type of store, etc. There are a lot of options for the customer.
I think this is really a large part of the puzzle. Do people destination shop for much of anything these days? I used to do the afternoon shop at Wegmans including a "break" (lol) for lunch. But as time has gone on I want to do other things with my time that don't include being in a grocery store. Smaller is better, efficient shopping is in. And I can do that in so many more places now. Wegmans still brings people in but I don't think it is the universal draw that it once was.
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Re: Wegmans to close Natick, MA location

Post by veteran+ »

mjhale wrote: June 10th, 2023, 5:25 am
storewanderer wrote: June 10th, 2023, 12:34 am There is a lot of new competition and people's tastes are changing. While customers may have previously gone to the big destination Wegman's on a weekend and done all of their shopping there, now they may still go there but also go to a new ethnic store or perhaps to a Farmer's Market type of store, etc. There are a lot of options for the customer.
I think this is really a large part of the puzzle. Do people destination shop for much of anything these days? I used to do the afternoon shop at Wegmans including a "break" (lol) for lunch. But as time has gone on I want to do other things with my time that don't include being in a grocery store. Smaller is better, efficient shopping is in. And I can do that in so many more places now. Wegmans still brings people in but I don't think it is the universal draw that it once was.
Interesting!

And I am just the opposite.

My time is better spent NOT shopping (for anything) so "one stop" works for me. I am not an impulse shopper so I can navigate a very large store quickly! But there has to be easy and abundant parking with good ingress and egress.

More time for walking, hiking, museums, travel, zoos, swimming, discoveries, art galleries, live theatre, etc. etc., just NOT shopping (buying stuff).

;)
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