Retail Watchers

rwsandiego wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 8:39 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 11:17 pm

rwsandiego wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 10:44 pm

Did you notice whether the sourdough came from Sadie Rose Bakeries? They have an excellent product. One of the things I miss about San Diego, TBH.

Nope, it was actually in house baked. They have a completely unique program at that store. Unfortunately I arrived very late and the department was closed, I would have loved to ask about how they're doing this as it had to be scratch made versus the frozen dough or brown and serve stuff sold at other stores.

That's great to hear. It doesn't surprise me, given the store is located in "downtown" LaJolla. (Side note: LaJolla Village Square and UTC like to think of themselves as "LaJolla," but they aren't. That is University City.)

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 11:17 pmI like a very strong sourdough flavor, and I prefer the glossy bubbled crust versus the current trendy "rustic" style. For a regular brand on a shelf I always pick up a few loaves of Brian's when I am up in the Central Coast area, it has that great tangy sourdough flavor and freezes well. The tangy sour taste is what I'm addicted to, and it was perfect in this Pavilions bread. Wherever they got their sourdough starter from, they have a winner.

I'm with you on the sourdough bread. The "rustic" crust just isn't sourdough to me. Next time I am in San Diego I'll have to stop in and pick up a couple of loaves.

Let's hope the merged entity (if there is one - fingers crossed that it doesn't happen) retains niche products like this.

I think that the 4 tier oven they bought for this store is responsible for the great quality. Haven't paid attention to what they use in the Bay Area Safeway stores but this looks like a 4 level pizza oven. Haven't seen it in any Vons, Albertsons or Pavilions. Usually those stores have a weird wood fire type oven that seems to either just be for show or is used to finish par baked bread loaves for the case up front, of course no wood has ever been put in those ovens. This Pavilions is the first I've seen that did not have that "show" oven. To get a crust like that it would require proper steam injection through the baking process. It's entirely possible that they're just using whatever comes from Safeway but preparing it exactly to the instructions and using the right oven. I did mention they obviously were sloppy in sizing the rolls but they tasted wonderful.

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 4:20 pm

rwsandiego wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 8:39 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 11:17 pm

Nope, it was actually in house baked. They have a completely unique program at that store. Unfortunately I arrived very late and the department was closed, I would have loved to ask about how they're doing this as it had to be scratch made versus the frozen dough or brown and serve stuff sold at other stores.

That's great to hear. It doesn't surprise me, given the store is located in "downtown" LaJolla. (Side note: LaJolla Village Square and UTC like to think of themselves as "LaJolla," but they aren't. That is University City.)

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 11:17 pmI like a very strong sourdough flavor, and I prefer the glossy bubbled crust versus the current trendy "rustic" style. For a regular brand on a shelf I always pick up a few loaves of Brian's when I am up in the Central Coast area, it has that great tangy sourdough flavor and freezes well. The tangy sour taste is what I'm addicted to, and it was perfect in this Pavilions bread. Wherever they got their sourdough starter from, they have a winner.

I'm with you on the sourdough bread. The "rustic" crust just isn't sourdough to me. Next time I am in San Diego I'll have to stop in and pick up a couple of loaves.

Let's hope the merged entity (if there is one - fingers crossed that it doesn't happen) retains niche products like this.

I think that the 4 tier oven they bought for this store is responsible for the great quality. Haven't paid attention to what they use in the Bay Area Safeway stores but this looks like a 4 level pizza oven. Haven't seen it in any Vons, Albertsons or Pavilions. Usually those stores have a weird wood fire type oven that seems to either just be for show or is used to finish par baked bread loaves for the case up front, of course no wood has ever been put in those ovens. This Pavilions is the first I've seen that did not have that "show" oven. To get a crust like that it would require proper steam injection through the baking process. It's entirely possible that they're just using whatever comes from Safeway but preparing it exactly to the instructions and using the right oven. I did mention they obviously were sloppy in sizing the rolls but they tasted wonderful.

Whole Foods used to make really good sourdough similar to what you describe too. Have you tried theirs lately?

I haven't tried it in quite some time. I used to get rolls, but I don't see them anymore, I think they sell out by the time I shop.

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 4:20 pm

rwsandiego wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 8:39 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 11:17 pm

Nope, it was actually in house baked. They have a completely unique program at that store. Unfortunately I arrived very late and the department was closed, I would have loved to ask about how they're doing this as it had to be scratch made versus the frozen dough or brown and serve stuff sold at other stores.

That's great to hear. It doesn't surprise me, given the store is located in "downtown" LaJolla. (Side note: LaJolla Village Square and UTC like to think of themselves as "LaJolla," but they aren't. That is University City.)

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 11:17 pmI like a very strong sourdough flavor, and I prefer the glossy bubbled crust versus the current trendy "rustic" style. For a regular brand on a shelf I always pick up a few loaves of Brian's when I am up in the Central Coast area, it has that great tangy sourdough flavor and freezes well. The tangy sour taste is what I'm addicted to, and it was perfect in this Pavilions bread. Wherever they got their sourdough starter from, they have a winner.

I'm with you on the sourdough bread. The "rustic" crust just isn't sourdough to me. Next time I am in San Diego I'll have to stop in and pick up a couple of loaves.

Let's hope the merged entity (if there is one - fingers crossed that it doesn't happen) retains niche products like this.

I think that the 4 tier oven they bought for this store is responsible for the great quality. Haven't paid attention to what they use in the Bay Area Safeway stores but this looks like a 4 level pizza oven. Haven't seen it in any Vons, Albertsons or Pavilions. Usually those stores have a weird wood fire type oven that seems to either just be for show or is used to finish par baked bread loaves for the case up front, of course no wood has ever been put in those ovens. This Pavilions is the first I've seen that did not have that "show" oven. To get a crust like that it would require proper steam injection through the baking process. It's entirely possible that they're just using whatever comes from Safeway but preparing it exactly to the instructions and using the right oven. I did mention they obviously were sloppy in sizing the rolls but they tasted wonderful.

I feel like the Rancho Mirage Pavilions had ovens similar to this (if memory serves). They were indeed working ovens every day.

veteran+ wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 8:35 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 4:20 pm

rwsandiego wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 8:39 am
That's great to hear. It doesn't surprise me, given the store is located in "downtown" LaJolla. (Side note: LaJolla Village Square and UTC like to think of themselves as "LaJolla," but they aren't. That is University City.)


I'm with you on the sourdough bread. The "rustic" crust just isn't sourdough to me. Next time I am in San Diego I'll have to stop in and pick up a couple of loaves.

Let's hope the merged entity (if there is one - fingers crossed that it doesn't happen) retains niche products like this.

I think that the 4 tier oven they bought for this store is responsible for the great quality. Haven't paid attention to what they use in the Bay Area Safeway stores but this looks like a 4 level pizza oven. Haven't seen it in any Vons, Albertsons or Pavilions. Usually those stores have a weird wood fire type oven that seems to either just be for show or is used to finish par baked bread loaves for the case up front, of course no wood has ever been put in those ovens. This Pavilions is the first I've seen that did not have that "show" oven. To get a crust like that it would require proper steam injection through the baking process. It's entirely possible that they're just using whatever comes from Safeway but preparing it exactly to the instructions and using the right oven. I did mention they obviously were sloppy in sizing the rolls but they tasted wonderful.

I feel like the Rancho Mirage Pavilions had ovens similar to this (if memory serves). They were indeed working ovens every day.

Not an oven like this (this is only one level)
https://www.aiadallas.org/media/uploads ... 349_sm.jpg

This oven in the above photo was mostly used for "show" - par baked loaves would get put into it. Bread went in and out all day. I think originally this was intended to be a program where you could get bread baked basically on demand (the par baked loaves) but I never saw that program in action it was killed so fast. The main french bread got baked in the main giant ovens back in the back (rolling carts go directly in/out of the oven with the loaves on them).

storewanderer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:21 pm

veteran+ wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 8:35 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 4:20 pm

I think that the 4 tier oven they bought for this store is responsible for the great quality. Haven't paid attention to what they use in the Bay Area Safeway stores but this looks like a 4 level pizza oven. Haven't seen it in any Vons, Albertsons or Pavilions. Usually those stores have a weird wood fire type oven that seems to either just be for show or is used to finish par baked bread loaves for the case up front, of course no wood has ever been put in those ovens. This Pavilions is the first I've seen that did not have that "show" oven. To get a crust like that it would require proper steam injection through the baking process. It's entirely possible that they're just using whatever comes from Safeway but preparing it exactly to the instructions and using the right oven. I did mention they obviously were sloppy in sizing the rolls but they tasted wonderful.

I feel like the Rancho Mirage Pavilions had ovens similar to this (if memory serves). They were indeed working ovens every day.

Not an oven like this (this is only one level)
https://www.aiadallas.org/media/uploads ... 349_sm.jpg

This oven in the above photo was mostly used for "show" - par baked loaves would get put into it. Bread went in and out all day. I think originally this was intended to be a program where you could get bread baked basically on demand (the par baked loaves) but I never saw that program in action it was killed so fast. The main french bread got baked in the main giant ovens back in the back (rolling carts go directly in/out of the oven with the loaves on them).

That La Jolla store has a new 4 tier oven tower that I'm pretty sure is blocking one of those old "for show" ovens. And the three big rotating ones around the corner.

storewanderer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:21 pm

veteran+ wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 8:35 am

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 4:20 pm

I think that the 4 tier oven they bought for this store is responsible for the great quality. Haven't paid attention to what they use in the Bay Area Safeway stores but this looks like a 4 level pizza oven. Haven't seen it in any Vons, Albertsons or Pavilions. Usually those stores have a weird wood fire type oven that seems to either just be for show or is used to finish par baked bread loaves for the case up front, of course no wood has ever been put in those ovens. This Pavilions is the first I've seen that did not have that "show" oven. To get a crust like that it would require proper steam injection through the baking process. It's entirely possible that they're just using whatever comes from Safeway but preparing it exactly to the instructions and using the right oven. I did mention they obviously were sloppy in sizing the rolls but they tasted wonderful.

I feel like the Rancho Mirage Pavilions had ovens similar to this (if memory serves). They were indeed working ovens every day.

Not an oven like this (this is only one level)
https://www.aiadallas.org/media/uploads ... 349_sm.jpg

This oven in the above photo was mostly used for "show" - par baked loaves would get put into it. Bread went in and out all day. I think originally this was intended to be a program where you could get bread baked basically on demand (the par baked loaves) but I never saw that program in action it was killed so fast. The main french bread got baked in the main giant ovens back in the back (rolling carts go directly in/out of the oven with the loaves on them).

Nope, it looked somewhat bigger and it was used everyday. The smell would be all over the store. They even made focaccia bread.

veteran+ wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 9:43 am

storewanderer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:21 pm

veteran+ wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 8:35 am

I feel like the Rancho Mirage Pavilions had ovens similar to this (if memory serves). They were indeed working ovens every day.

Not an oven like this (this is only one level)
https://www.aiadallas.org/media/uploads ... 349_sm.jpg

This oven in the above photo was mostly used for "show" - par baked loaves would get put into it. Bread went in and out all day. I think originally this was intended to be a program where you could get bread baked basically on demand (the par baked loaves) but I never saw that program in action it was killed so fast. The main french bread got baked in the main giant ovens back in the back (rolling carts go directly in/out of the oven with the loaves on them).

Nope, it looked somewhat bigger and it was used everyday. The smell would be all over the store. They even made focaccia bread.

La Jolla previously had an oven that looked like the one in the picture.

With as cheap as their remodels are it is interesting they put the money out for a new oven. Maybe they had a used one and just installed it in La Jolla. Or this Pavilions project gets better remodels than usual.

storewanderer wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 9:54 am

veteran+ wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 9:43 am

storewanderer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:21 pm

Not an oven like this (this is only one level)
https://www.aiadallas.org/media/uploads ... 349_sm.jpg

This oven in the above photo was mostly used for "show" - par baked loaves would get put into it. Bread went in and out all day. I think originally this was intended to be a program where you could get bread baked basically on demand (the par baked loaves) but I never saw that program in action it was killed so fast. The main french bread got baked in the main giant ovens back in the back (rolling carts go directly in/out of the oven with the loaves on them).

Nope, it looked somewhat bigger and it was used everyday. The smell would be all over the store. They even made focaccia bread.

La Jolla previously had an oven that looked like the one in the picture.

With as cheap as their remodels are it is interesting they put the money out for a new oven. Maybe they had a used one and just installed it in La Jolla. Or this Pavilions project gets better remodels than usual.

The La Jolla equipment is brand shiny new. They definitely put more into this one than most recent existing Pavilions remodels. It's unfortunate that they didn't have the budget to remove the drop ceilings, it's a very low ceiling and that forces them to minimize the size of the decor and signage. So the general impression of the store is that it is pretty plain because if you're in an aisle or near tall fixtures like the freezers you cannot see the walls. It's definitely a step up from the previous Pavilions remodels and upgrades which seemed formulaic in nature. The bigger upgrade here is that meat and seafood department which is Bristol Farms/Gelsons/insert fancy store name here level. No other Pavilions I've seen with that quality, presentation, or professional service. I'm curious to see Montecito, I wonder if they also got a stepped up product line.

Also looking at pictures they finally remodeled the Balboa store. That one opened its doors as a boring Vons Lifestyle interior with nothing to differentiate it as a Pavilions besides the liquor area next door you would access through a cut-through doorway (the Pavilions-in-name-only like Long Beach and a few others). Few pictures but it looks like a full interior gut which could be good and bad at the same time, it had a separate liquor department next door with a very dark and moody interior with lots of cherry woodwork, it appears that has been completely torn out and is bright and shiny with lit shelves and light quartz stone everywhere.

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 1:30 pm
Also looking at pictures they finally remodeled the Balboa store. That one opened its doors as a boring Vons Lifestyle interior with nothing to differentiate it as a Pavilions besides the liquor area next door you would access through a cut-through doorway (the Pavilions-in-name-only like Long Beach and a few others). Few pictures but it looks like a full interior gut which could be good and bad at the same time, it had a separate liquor department next door with a very dark and moody interior with lots of cherry woodwork, it appears that has been completely torn out and is bright and shiny with lit shelves and light quartz stone everywhere.

Moving reply to California merger thread

ClownLoach wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 8:29 pm

babs wrote: ↑November 6th, 2023, 9:20 am

storewanderer wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 11:54 pm

There are relatively few of those 100k square foot size Fred Meyer Marketplace units. There are a few out there that feel closer to 80k square feet.

For all we know if C&S was given the choice between a 100k square foot Fred Meyer Marketplace that currently does $1 million a week in sales or a 50k square foot Safeway that does $600k a week in sales, they did this analysis:
1. We have no clue how to merchandise 100k square feet
2. Fred Meyer is a semi-discount format and we cannot match its pricing, we will be lucky to keep 75% of Fred Meyer's volume and there is a real risk we will lose 50% of their volume.
3. If we lose 50% of the volume that 100k square foot store is no longer viable and we won't be able to turn a profit
4. We better just try to buy the Safeway- already a smaller footprint, very high priced so pricing will be more similar to how C&S pricing is, etc.

Those Fred Meyer marketplace stores are some of their best stores. For instance the Burlingame store is the store with the highest sales per sq ft in the entire chain and likely near the top in all of Kroger. The other locations perform well too. Why would you dump those when there are nearly by Safeway or Albertsons stores doing a fraction in sales.

There is no way that a single Fred Meyer unit is divested, and C&S isn't capable of operating one. I'll bet Kroger is going to argue tooth and nail that they're not grocery stores but "multi department stores" and thus should not be considered as direct competition subject to divestiture. I think they're going to be "willing to concede" and dump every Safeway/Albertsons that are right next to a FM, which is surprisingly common, and sell them off since they're making a tiny fraction of the sales of these giant FM's that have 36 staffed registers all with long lines during prime time hours. Then they dump nearly all of QFC except for the few gems, and keep all the lower format but highly profitable rural Safeways throughout the Northwest. The only other oddball idea I can think of would be for Kroger to somehow offer to split up some of the lower volume FM's, maybe say they''ll split it and operate the GM side as a standalone store while C&S can take the grocery side? But based on the layout of many of the stores that are "bookended" with apparel at one end and GM at the other that wouldn't be physically possible without massive remodeling expense. I doubt there are any FM's that do less than a million a week, maybe some extreme remote locations (Tillamook?). But "average" stores like Grand Central in Vancouver, WA have got to be bringing in between $2M and $3M a week, and "busy" stores more than that.

There are also some locations where a Fred Meyer even has TWO Safeway/Albertsons within a mile. Salmon Creek and Battle Ground are examples. But there are also locations such as Longview, WA where Safeway is right next to Fred Meyer (Battle Ground also falls into this category as well)

At this point, the Fred Meyer locations are the most "Krogerized" of anything in the Pacific Northwest and I do not see many of these getting divested.

I gotta wonder though, if they finally do divest a store in Baker City, if the remaining one would end up as an Albertsons (given the location is closer to Boise) or as Safeway. My bet is that the present Albertsons, which is a newer location, would be kept. But it's hard to say when the stores have already fallen through the cracks....

I do have to wonder though if Kroger is interested in keeping the Safeway and/or Albertsons stores in towns in Washington and Oregon where there is no Fred Meyer. Baker City and Clatskanie are examples. Then you have Centralia/Chehalis, which has Safeway and no Fred Meyer (who backed out of a proposed development and was replaced by WinCo, despite having a distribution center there)