Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by J-Man »

I visited an Amazon Fresh store again today to take advantage of their Prime Day advertised specials, as well as a $20 off of $40 coupon. I was there at around 10:30AM on the first day of the two-day event. What a disaster! Most of the highly discounted items (BOGO ground beef, corn 5/$1, Hillshire Farm Kielbasa, Amazon Hummus, Happy Belly Sharp Cheddar Slices-$1 each) were out of stock already. And the store was packed -- and I heard MANY shoppers complaining to the numerous employees wandering the aisles to pick items for delivery or pickup orders. I would HATE to be working there and having to listen to complaints for hours from disgruntled shoppers -- especially when the front line workers have nothing to do with the problem. Being out of stock of advertised specials -- especially within a few hours of the beginning of the sale -- is one of the things many people won't tolerate. I'm sure they lost some potential customers with this situation. And I know that some people will complain to government authorities about it. I will say that some of the sale items that were still available (BOGO bacon, frozen shrimp, Aplenty ice cream; $1 strawberries) were good buys. But who knows how long they are going to last.

I've visited this store three times before-- two of the three times they had advertised Strawberry Tres Leches cake in the bakery for $9.99-- and it was not available either of those times. The third time, it was not on sale, and there were plenty of them at nearly twice the price. Today, it was on special again for $9.99, and I finally managed to snag one.

I'm getting the impression that most people do not want to use the Just Walk Out option--as I said, the store was packed, and all of the checkout lines had at least five people waiting, yet almost no one was using Just Walk Out. I never saw a single person go through every time I walked by the area. I did end up using Just Walk Out myself. And now, more than eight hours later, I have yet to receive a receipt. I'm wondering how accurately the system tracked everything given how crowded the store was. Remains to be seen.
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by Alpha8472 »

The computers cannot handle crowds that block the cameras. Apparently, if the computer is confused, tech workers have to review the camera footage for each customer and manually add up the merchandise. This technology is flawed and cannot work in a crowded store. Amazon will lose tons of money in lost sales.

Tech workers are paid much higher than a cashier. If tech workers have to waste their time reviewing camera footage then it just shows that real cashiers do a better job and cost less. These corporations do not realize that technology is not ready to eliminate the need for people. Trained hard working employees can be cost effective and are worth their wages.

Either management or someone higher up at Corporate is at fault if they cannot keep the store stocked. They need to order enough and keep replenishing it. If you fail to order enough then someone needs to deal with it.

These stores are doomed to fail unless they make some serious changes.

People say this technology is supposed to cut down on theft. You lose quite a bit just because the cameras miss items. I saw cameras spray painted with black paint before. Cameras can be tampered with and blocked.
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by J-Man »

Well, it took a full 24 hours, but I FINALLY received my receipt from yesterday's purchase -- and surprisingly, it was 100% accurate. And even though many of the items I wanted were unavailable, I still managed to find $40 worth of items to buy, and saved quite a bit. At full price, my items would have cost $64.19. Between the sale prices and the $20 coupon, I only paid $21.29.
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by Alpha8472 »

I can see why it took 24 hours. The employees probably had to switch from camera to camera and follow customers around.

I wonder if people have purposely tried to get overcharged. You take more items than you need and then randomly toss them out in various other parts of the store. See what happens when you change your mind at the last minute or leave a bunch of items at the door. Will you get overcharged? What happens if you put stuff in your reusable grocery bag and then take stuff out randomly in other parts of the store. What if someone takes your shopping cart while you are shopping? Do you get charged or will the other person get charged?
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by storewanderer »

J-Man wrote: July 13th, 2022, 11:12 am Well, it took a full 24 hours, but I FINALLY received my receipt from yesterday's purchase -- and surprisingly, it was 100% accurate. And even though many of the items I wanted were unavailable, I still managed to find $40 worth of items to buy, and saved quite a bit. At full price, my items would have cost $64.19. Between the sale prices and the $20 coupon, I only paid $21.29.
Glad everything came out right. Whatever lab of people Amazon has watching tv's following people around on camera and tallying up their order must be really understaffed. This isn't revolutionary technology- it is a labor intensive joke. No clue what your total was for 24 HOURS AFTER YOU LEAVE THE STORE? Unbelievable.... Just Walk Out should be scrapped immediately.
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by mjhale »

Alpha8472 wrote: July 13th, 2022, 10:08 am The computers cannot handle crowds that block the cameras. Apparently, if the computer is confused, tech workers have to review the camera footage for each customer and manually add up the merchandise. This technology is flawed and cannot work in a crowded store. Amazon will lose tons of money in lost sales.

Tech workers are paid much higher than a cashier. If tech workers have to waste their time reviewing camera footage then it just shows that real cashiers do a better job and cost less. These corporations do not realize that technology is not ready to eliminate the need for people. Trained hard working employees can be cost effective and are worth their wages.

Either management or someone higher up at Corporate is at fault if they cannot keep the store stocked. They need to order enough and keep replenishing it. If you fail to order enough then someone needs to deal with it.

These stores are doomed to fail unless they make some serious changes.

People say this technology is supposed to cut down on theft. You lose quite a bit just because the cameras miss items. I saw cameras spray painted with black paint before. Cameras can be tampered with and blocked.
I think one has to consider whether Amazon is running these stores as grocery stores, online fulfillment centers, technology test beds or a combination of all three. If Amazon wanted to run this purely as a grocery store they would employ cashiers and deploy self-checkout. You are correct that the salaries of those positions will save the company in the long run because computation of customer purchases are likely to be much more accurate. Given the problems that have been described in this thread I don't think Amazon really wanted to run these as grocery stores or they are completely incompetent at doing so (which has been suggested here too). The technology of Just Walk Out is the ooohhhh cool factor that gets that sort of crowd in the door. Whether it works properly or not people might shop there because of it. It also gives Amazon a test bed for the walk out technology. Amazon is probably willing to take a loss to refine the technology which might be why they are having a certain level of employee who actually finalizes the bills for customers. Amazon just has to hope they get the technology working properly and to a level of accuracy and customer acceptance that makes it viable for the long run. How about all those handheld scanners that grocery stores thought were the next big thing? The Giant-MD store near me has them tucked away behind the sale flyer rack, some newspapers and the outer section of the floral department. Sure the scanners are still on and ready but nobody actually uses them.
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by lake52 »

mjhale wrote: July 13th, 2022, 7:36 pm
Alpha8472 wrote: July 13th, 2022, 10:08 am The computers cannot handle crowds that block the cameras. Apparently, if the computer is confused, tech workers have to review the camera footage for each customer and manually add up the merchandise. This technology is flawed and cannot work in a crowded store. Amazon will lose tons of money in lost sales.

Tech workers are paid much higher than a cashier. If tech workers have to waste their time reviewing camera footage then it just shows that real cashiers do a better job and cost less. These corporations do not realize that technology is not ready to eliminate the need for people. Trained hard working employees can be cost effective and are worth their wages.

Either management or someone higher up at Corporate is at fault if they cannot keep the store stocked. They need to order enough and keep replenishing it. If you fail to order enough then someone needs to deal with it.

These stores are doomed to fail unless they make some serious changes.

People say this technology is supposed to cut down on theft. You lose quite a bit just because the cameras miss items. I saw cameras spray painted with black paint before. Cameras can be tampered with and blocked.
I think one has to consider whether Amazon is running these stores as grocery stores, online fulfillment centers, technology test beds or a combination of all three. If Amazon wanted to run this purely as a grocery store they would employ cashiers and deploy self-checkout. You are correct that the salaries of those positions will save the company in the long run because computation of customer purchases are likely to be much more accurate. Given the problems that have been described in this thread I don't think Amazon really wanted to run these as grocery stores or they are completely incompetent at doing so (which has been suggested here too). The technology of Just Walk Out is the ooohhhh cool factor that gets that sort of crowd in the door. Whether it works properly or not people might shop there because of it. It also gives Amazon a test bed for the walk out technology. Amazon is probably willing to take a loss to refine the technology which might be why they are having a certain level of employee who actually finalizes the bills for customers. Amazon just has to hope they get the technology working properly and to a level of accuracy and customer acceptance that makes it viable for the long run. How about all those handheld scanners that grocery stores thought were the next big thing? The Giant-MD store near me has them tucked away behind the sale flyer rack, some newspapers and the outer section of the floral department. Sure the scanners are still on and ready but nobody actually uses them.
You hit the nail on the head here. Amazon likely has to verify many purchases that are flagged for one reason or another. It may not even be to verify what you’ve purchased, but instead to identify and determine the cause of a bug identified by the system. This obviously takes time, but as the system’s bugs are solved the time will go down. Amazon is really quite lucky that they’re making any sort of income on the Beta tests of JWO.

Think of self driving cars for example… Cruise has had vehicles on the streets of SF since 2016. They have had to pay the salaries of their employees (1,100 currently)that entire time. Just this year did they finally get approval for the vehicles to drive without someone in the drivers seat. And just this month they started making the rides available to the public and charging for them. So Cruise, although backed by GM, lit money on fire for 6 years with no income.

Plenty of other tech companies have never made a profit but are kept afloat by backers, and Amazon is an incredibly wealthy backer. That’s just the way things are in tech.

Amazon not only has the ability here to come up with a way to reduce overhead by eliminating cashiers, better managing inventory, reducing shrink, etc but they’re also collecting valuable data about decision making processes and influences. Look how much Google makes based off your search history. Amazon knowing what influences your purchasing decisions is incredibly valuable
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by Bagels »

The line to get into the Irvine store tonight at 9PM.

Image

No fresh meat or seafood left, very little produce. Huge lines.

No thanks.
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by buckguy »

lake52 wrote: July 13th, 2022, 7:49 pm
mjhale wrote: July 13th, 2022, 7:36 pm
Alpha8472 wrote: July 13th, 2022, 10:08 am The computers cannot handle crowds that block the cameras. Apparently, if the computer is confused, tech workers have to review the camera footage for each customer and manually add up the merchandise. This technology is flawed and cannot work in a crowded store. Amazon will lose tons of money in lost sales.

Tech workers are paid much higher than a cashier. If tech workers have to waste their time reviewing camera footage then it just shows that real cashiers do a better job and cost less. These corporations do not realize that technology is not ready to eliminate the need for people. Trained hard working employees can be cost effective and are worth their wages.

Either management or someone higher up at Corporate is at fault if they cannot keep the store stocked. They need to order enough and keep replenishing it. If you fail to order enough then someone needs to deal with it.

These stores are doomed to fail unless they make some serious changes.

People say this technology is supposed to cut down on theft. You lose quite a bit just because the cameras miss items. I saw cameras spray painted with black paint before. Cameras can be tampered with and blocked.
I think one has to consider whether Amazon is running these stores as grocery stores, online fulfillment centers, technology test beds or a combination of all three. If Amazon wanted to run this purely as a grocery store they would employ cashiers and deploy self-checkout. You are correct that the salaries of those positions will save the company in the long run because computation of customer purchases are likely to be much more accurate. Given the problems that have been described in this thread I don't think Amazon really wanted to run these as grocery stores or they are completely incompetent at doing so (which has been suggested here too). The technology of Just Walk Out is the ooohhhh cool factor that gets that sort of crowd in the door. Whether it works properly or not people might shop there because of it. It also gives Amazon a test bed for the walk out technology. Amazon is probably willing to take a loss to refine the technology which might be why they are having a certain level of employee who actually finalizes the bills for customers. Amazon just has to hope they get the technology working properly and to a level of accuracy and customer acceptance that makes it viable for the long run. How about all those handheld scanners that grocery stores thought were the next big thing? The Giant-MD store near me has them tucked away behind the sale flyer rack, some newspapers and the outer section of the floral department. Sure the scanners are still on and ready but nobody actually uses them.
You hit the nail on the head here. Amazon likely has to verify many purchases that are flagged for one reason or another. It may not even be to verify what you’ve purchased, but instead to identify and determine the cause of a bug identified by the system. This obviously takes time, but as the system’s bugs are solved the time will go down. Amazon is really quite lucky that they’re making any sort of income on the Beta tests of JWO.

Think of self driving cars for example… Cruise has had vehicles on the streets of SF since 2016. They have had to pay the salaries of their employees (1,100 currently)that entire time. Just this year did they finally get approval for the vehicles to drive without someone in the drivers seat. And just this month they started making the rides available to the public and charging for them. So Cruise, although backed by GM, lit money on fire for 6 years with no income.

Plenty of other tech companies have never made a profit but are kept afloat by backers, and Amazon is an incredibly wealthy backer. That’s just the way things are in tech.

Amazon not only has the ability here to come up with a way to reduce overhead by eliminating cashiers, better managing inventory, reducing shrink, etc but they’re also collecting valuable data about decision making processes and influences. Look how much Google makes based off your search history. Amazon knowing what influences your purchasing decisions is incredibly valuable
Amazon is primarily a software company and that's always a useful starting point for thinking about what they are doing. The are pretty clear practical issues here and I'm guessing that this is a beta test, with enough faith in the concept to roll it in multiple places. If it isn't too resource intensive it could turn into something very competitive, but they may actually be more interested in the data for other purposes or to eventually sell some aspect(s) of the model.

The Amazon Fresh format is heavy on refrigerated items and although that's expensive to operate and doesn't get many customers. That format probably makes it easy to collect data (using weight or other indices of items taken) for frozen or refrigerated items, which may be the actual point of the stores.
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Re: Amazon Fresh: Just Walk Out

Post by storewanderer »

buckguy wrote: July 14th, 2022, 8:49 am

Amazon is primarily a software company and that's always a useful starting point for thinking about what they are doing. The are pretty clear practical issues here and I'm guessing that this is a beta test, with enough faith in the concept to roll it in multiple places. If it isn't too resource intensive it could turn into something very competitive, but they may actually be more interested in the data for other purposes or to eventually sell some aspect(s) of the model.

The Amazon Fresh format is heavy on refrigerated items and although that's expensive to operate and doesn't get many customers. That format probably makes it easy to collect data (using weight or other indices of items taken) for frozen or refrigerated items, which may be the actual point of the stores.
I don't find Amazon Fresh to be particularly heavy on refrigerated items. The amount of space for meat, produce, frozen, and dairy seems about in line with a typical grocery store of its size if not slightly small for frozen/dairy. Bakery and deli vary a lot by chain and my view is they have more space than they can fill in these stores but it isn't necessarily too much refrigeration (too much space, too large of food bars, etc.).

But having the concept heavy on refrigerated items may make some sense. If they were to fulfill "dry" orders at a robotic/satellite warehouse and then partial pick refrigerated items at Amazon Fresh then send the orders out for delivery within a few mile radius of the Amazon Fresh store, that may make sense.
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