Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by buckguy »

Kroger always comes up middling, at best, in large scale customer surveys. I've lived in multiple Kroger territories over a long time, including Atlanta (which actually isn't all that affluent---what looks like wealth there tends to be heavily leveraged and upscale retailers don't have enough faith in Atlanta to always bring their A-game). Kroger's strength has always been playing defense. They've never been an innovator--things like their superstores came too late to rescue them from there most northerly markets--even laggards like National Tea were more aggressive in upgrading to large combo stores in some of these markets like St. Louis. They've also never been strong in perishables---this hurt them in places like Chicago and Cleveland. Their ability to translate novel concepts like Fred Meyer or Fresh Fare has been mixed at best. They seem to have stopped building stores with general merchandise and their effort to infuse Kroger stores with more upscale lines didn't seem to work for them in Atlanta. They survived in Atlanta because their competition imploded for a variety of reasons during the 70s and 80s and they've been able to maintain most of that base. Kroger eliminated markets where they weren't 1st or 2nd during the 70s and 80s and they've been lucky in many of their remaining markets---in places like Indianapolis, Cincinnati, and Columbus they've benefited from the decline of once strong local competitors because of undercapitalization and/or acquisition by inept or financially challenged new owners. Atlanta actually was a market considered for exiting in the 70s, but they got lucky with the decline of the previous market leaders like Colonial.

Publix benefited from taking over other chain's stores in Atlanta but the market share of those stores (A&Ps) didn't amount to much; they built plenty of their own stores and built their own market share. Pubkix took some chances with some of their early locations, but those mostly worked out for them. They probably benefited from H-T's demise but H-T was a small factor in the overall marketplace and Kroger bought most of H-T's stores.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by TempoNick »

That's all well and good buckguy, but they declined and Kroger didn't. Dozens of them declined

Kroger has it going on. People have choices. Kroger had Cub, Giant Eagle, Food Town, Big Bear, A&P, Fazio's, Food Town, Winn-Dixie, Fresh Encounter, Cook United, Marsh, National, Scott's and Colonial through the years and they ran them all out of Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville, Detroit and elsewhere. Anywhere within a three or four hour drive of Cincinnati and Kroger stores are packed. That isn't by accident and it isn't by playing defense. It's by running a tight ship and being priced right.
Last edited by TempoNick on September 21st, 2021, 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by TempoNick »

veteran+ wrote: September 21st, 2021, 5:49 pm
Yes I agree and understand but market share is does not always mean you are the best.
Au contraire, their jam-packed stores say they are the best. Their store count, sales and, most importantly, profit, also say they are the best. They are the best by far.

No, Kroger is not a "fancy" store. But it's not a bottom-tier store, either. It's slightly above middle tier and that's just fine. Like there's a huge difference between milk and canned goods from store to store? Kroger excels in produce. Not crazy about their meats, but they are tolerable.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by arizonaguy »

TempoNick wrote: September 21st, 2021, 8:34 pm That's all well and good buckguy, but they declined and Kroger didn't. Dozens of them declined

Kroger has it going on. People have choices. Kroger had Cub, Giant Eagle, Food Town, Big Bear, A&P, Fazio's, Food Town, Winn-Dixie, Fresh Encounter, Cook United and Colonial through the years and they ran them all out of Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville, Detroit and elsewhere. Anywhere within a three or four hour drive of Cincinnati and Kroger stores are packed. That isn't by accident and it isn't by playing defense. It's by running a tight ship and being priced right.
Kroger didn't run A&P (Farmer Jack) out of Detroit. Farmer Jack was A&P's strongest division (and Kroger considered exiting Detroit in the 1990s). A&P's implosion (and the fact that the profitable Detroit division was so far away from it's core operations) gave Kroger the opening to be the only major conventional chain in Detroit (I consider Meijer to be a supercenter chain).

In Phoenix Kroger merged 3 of the leading chains together to become a solid #1 and let Walmart knock off the ABCO Desert Market chain as well as weaken Bashas' and Albertsons / Safeway. Of course now Albertsons / Safeway is building new stores and seems stronger then ever as they re-invested in the Arizona division after the merger.

Back to the original topic. Kroger competes against Publix in many markets (like Atlanta and Nashville) and hasn't been run out of town by Publix. I doubt that Louisville would be the exception.

The bigger threat to Kroger would be H-E-B in Dallas (as H-E-B would have a new store fleet in newer shopping centers and or redeveloped shopping centers). Kroger seems weaker against H-E-B (Houston) than it does against other competitors such as Albertsons / Safeway.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by TempoNick »

arizonaguy wrote: September 21st, 2021, 8:41 pm
Kroger didn't run A&P (Farmer Jack) out of Detroit. Farmer Jack was A&P's strongest division (and Kroger considered exiting Detroit in the 1990s). A&P's implosion (and the fact that the profitable Detroit division was so far away from it's core operations) gave Kroger the opening to be the only major conventional chain in Detroit (I consider Meijer to be a supercenter chain).
Ah, but do they exist anymore? No. Who survived? That's right, Kroger (and Meijer). Whatever the reason was, they didn't make it and Kroger is still there. That didn't happen by accident. It is true that Kroger was down for a long time in Michigan, but I don't think that's been the case for the past 15 or 20 years. They've been clicking on all cylinders.

TempoNick wrote: September 21st, 2021, 8:34 pm The bigger threat to Kroger would be H-E-B in Dallas
From what I see, the only people they seem to have trouble competing against are H-E-B and Hy-Vee. They aren't winning against Hy-Vee in Missouri and Omaha, either. They gave up in Springfield and are down to two third-tier stores in Columbia. This is their home turf (Dillon's) so I wonder why they're not competitive.

I don't know what H-E-B's pricing is like but I would imagine they are higher than Kroger. Could just be that there is too much oil money in Houston and price doesn't matter there.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by DFWRetaileWatcher »

arizonaguy wrote: September 21st, 2021, 8:41 pm
TempoNick wrote: September 21st, 2021, 8:34 pm That's all well and good buckguy, but they declined and Kroger didn't. Dozens of them declined

Kroger has it going on. People have choices. Kroger had Cub, Giant Eagle, Food Town, Big Bear, A&P, Fazio's, Food Town, Winn-Dixie, Fresh Encounter, Cook United and Colonial through the years and they ran them all out of Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton, Indianapolis, Louisville, Detroit and elsewhere. Anywhere within a three or four hour drive of Cincinnati and Kroger stores are packed. That isn't by accident and it isn't by playing defense. It's by running a tight ship and being priced right.
Kroger didn't run A&P (Farmer Jack) out of Detroit. Farmer Jack was A&P's strongest division (and Kroger considered exiting Detroit in the 1990s). A&P's implosion (and the fact that the profitable Detroit division was so far away from it's core operations) gave Kroger the opening to be the only major conventional chain in Detroit (I consider Meijer to be a supercenter chain).

In Phoenix Kroger merged 3 of the leading chains together to become a solid #1 and let Walmart knock off the ABCO Desert Market chain as well as weaken Bashas' and Albertsons / Safeway. Of course now Albertsons / Safeway is building new stores and seems stronger then ever as they re-invested in the Arizona division after the merger.

Back to the original topic. Kroger competes against Publix in many markets (like Atlanta and Nashville) and hasn't been run out of town by Publix. I doubt that Louisville would be the exception.

The bigger threat to Kroger would be H-E-B in Dallas (as H-E-B would have a new store fleet in newer shopping centers and or redeveloped shopping centers). Kroger seems weaker against H-E-B (Houston) than it does against other competitors such as Albertsons / Safeway.
The massive economic downturn in the 2000s in Michigan didn't help Farmer Jack either. A lot of regional Detroit-based chains folded during that period.

Farmer Jack also struggled because Walmart suddenly underwent a massive expansion at the time (mainly to capitalize on Kmart's implosion, although taking out FJ too was also nice collateral damage for them), converting many of their general stores to Supercenters, and Kroger was actively renovating many of their locations while a lot of Farmer Jack stores were in older / crumbling buildings.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by TempoNick »

DFWRetaileWatcher wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 8:48 am
The massive economic downturn in the 2000s in Michigan didn't help Farmer Jack either. A lot of regional Detroit-based chains folded during that period.

Farmer Jack also struggled because Walmart suddenly underwent a massive expansion at the time (mainly to capitalize on Kmart's implosion, although taking out FJ too was also nice collateral damage for them), converting many of their general stores to Supercenters, and Kroger was actively renovating many of their locations while a lot of Farmer Jack stores were in older / crumbling buildings.
Everything you say is true, but Kroger is still the survivor. They were obviously doing things right and many things very well in order to end up being the sole survivor.

Kroger has its deficiencies, just like everybody else. (I do not care for their meats and that's what they used to be known for.) But when you compare them to most of what else is out there, it's obvious they deserve to be King of the Hill. Their old slogan, which they never should have gotten rid of, says it best: Right Store, Right Price.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by Bagels »

In 2010, Publix surpassed Kroger as the market share leader in Atlanta, but Kroger quickly regained the title back and has maintained it since. But both chains have since lost market share to Walmart. I realize that Kroger isn't the fan favorite on here, but they generally run excellent stores with competitive pricing and great sales pricing, which is unquestionably the reason Publix didn't stay on top in Atlanta long.
TempoNick wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 10:40 am
DFWRetaileWatcher wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 8:48 am
The massive economic downturn in the 2000s in Michigan didn't help Farmer Jack either. A lot of regional Detroit-based chains folded during that period.

Farmer Jack also struggled because Walmart suddenly underwent a massive expansion at the time (mainly to capitalize on Kmart's implosion, although taking out FJ too was also nice collateral damage for them), converting many of their general stores to Supercenters, and Kroger was actively renovating many of their locations while a lot of Farmer Jack stores were in older / crumbling buildings.
Everything you say is true, but Kroger is still the survivor. They were obviously doing things right and many things very well in order to end up being the sole survivor.

Kroger has its deficiencies, just like everybody else. (I do not care for their meats and that's what they used to be known for.) But when you compare them to most of what else is out there, it's obvious they deserve to be King of the Hill. Their old slogan, which they never should have gotten rid of, says it best: Right Store, Right Price.
Farmer Jack was a very profitable grocery store in the 1990s; it failed because rather than reinvesting some of the profits back into the stores, A&P put the profits into its failing NE operations. Investors were pulling for Safeway to dominate much of the Midwest, and after the chain overpaid for Dominick's, A&P thought it could command a high price for Farmer Jack (and Kohls). But Safeway lost interest in the Midwest, likely after it struggled to digest Dominick's, and Farmer Jack quickly fell to despair, garnering a horrible reputation. It was that poor reputation that ultimately killed off Farmer Jack -- Kroger maintained a large number of neglected stores in the area that were among the last in the chain to be renovated. Probably why Kroger's been replacing so many Detroit-area stores, when new construction is otherwise a rarity for the chain.

Walmart was a nonfactor - its first Supercenters opened in 2008 (FJ was defunct by 2007).
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by arizonaguy »

Bagels wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 3:49 pm In 2010, Publix surpassed Kroger as the market share leader in Atlanta, but Kroger quickly regained the title back and has maintained it since. But both chains have since lost market share to Walmart. I realize that Kroger isn't the fan favorite on here, but they generally run excellent stores with competitive pricing and great sales pricing, which is unquestionably the reason Publix didn't stay on top in Atlanta long.
TempoNick wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 10:40 am
DFWRetaileWatcher wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 8:48 am
The massive economic downturn in the 2000s in Michigan didn't help Farmer Jack either. A lot of regional Detroit-based chains folded during that period.

Farmer Jack also struggled because Walmart suddenly underwent a massive expansion at the time (mainly to capitalize on Kmart's implosion, although taking out FJ too was also nice collateral damage for them), converting many of their general stores to Supercenters, and Kroger was actively renovating many of their locations while a lot of Farmer Jack stores were in older / crumbling buildings.
Everything you say is true, but Kroger is still the survivor. They were obviously doing things right and many things very well in order to end up being the sole survivor.

Kroger has its deficiencies, just like everybody else. (I do not care for their meats and that's what they used to be known for.) But when you compare them to most of what else is out there, it's obvious they deserve to be King of the Hill. Their old slogan, which they never should have gotten rid of, says it best: Right Store, Right Price.
Farmer Jack was a very profitable grocery store in the 1990s; it failed because rather than reinvesting some of the profits back into the stores, A&P put the profits into its failing NE operations. Investors were pulling for Safeway to dominate much of the Midwest, and after the chain overpaid for Dominick's, A&P thought it could command a high price for Farmer Jack (and Kohls). But Safeway lost interest in the Midwest, likely after it struggled to digest Dominick's, and Farmer Jack quickly fell to despair, garnering a horrible reputation. It was that poor reputation that ultimately killed off Farmer Jack -- Kroger maintained a large number of neglected stores in the area that were among the last in the chain to be renovated. Probably why Kroger's been replacing so many Detroit-area stores, when new construction is otherwise a rarity for the chain.

Walmart was a nonfactor - its first Supercenters opened in 2008 (FJ was defunct by 2007).
Kroger was considering pulling out of Detroit (hence it's older neglected stores). If Farmer Jack hadn't imploded I'm not convinced Kroger would be there today.

The Kroger you described is what the Fry's supermarket chain here in Arizona was until about 2017 or so. The "Restock Kroger" initiative which began in 2017 started the downhill slide of Kroger. The pricing got less competitive and the store conditions deteriorated. Instead of having fully staffed checkstands (which was a mainstay at Kroger and Kroger affiliated stores and a competitive advantage) they started adding more self checkout, starting a ridiculous Scan Bag Go concept, or simply allowing for longer lines. The stores also haven't been as clean or maintained as well since this time period. The general merchandise quality and selection has deteriorated. At least in my market this has occurred at the same time that Albertsons / Safeway have been making improvements on both price and store quality.

Walmart, I'd argue, is still not a large factor in the Metro Detroit supermarket space. Meijer has over twice the number of stores as Walmart and what Walmart did do is essentially capture the business that formerly went to Kmart.

Every member of my extensive extended family in Michigan shops at Meijer regularly. The only people who shop at Walmart regularly are those that live in rural parts of the state where Meijer doesn't have much of a presence.
Last edited by arizonaguy on September 22nd, 2021, 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Publix entering Louisville, KY in 2023

Post by BatteryMill »

Bagels wrote: September 22nd, 2021, 3:49 pm In 2010, Publix surpassed Kroger as the market share leader in Atlanta, but Kroger quickly regained the title back and has maintained it since. But both chains have since lost market share to Walmart. I realize that Kroger isn't the fan favorite on here, but they generally run excellent stores with competitive pricing and great sales pricing, which is unquestionably the reason Publix didn't stay on top in Atlanta long.

Farmer Jack was a very profitable grocery store in the 1990s; it failed because rather than reinvesting some of the profits back into the stores, A&P put the profits into its failing NE operations. Investors were pulling for Safeway to dominate much of the Midwest, and after the chain overpaid for Dominick's, A&P thought it could command a high price for Farmer Jack (and Kohls). But Safeway lost interest in the Midwest, likely after it struggled to digest Dominick's, and Farmer Jack quickly fell to despair, garnering a horrible reputation. It was that poor reputation that ultimately killed off Farmer Jack -- Kroger maintained a large number of neglected stores in the area that were among the last in the chain to be renovated. Probably why Kroger's been replacing so many Detroit-area stores, when new construction is otherwise a rarity for the chain.

Walmart was a nonfactor - its first Supercenters opened in 2008 (FJ was defunct by 2007).
Walmart's Supercenters were late to Detroit... what were other such examples? They took until 2009 to introduce the D.C. metro area to these stores.
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