Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by buckguy »

storewanderer wrote: December 4th, 2021, 1:51 pm
veteran+ wrote: December 3rd, 2021, 9:36 am I will have to check out that Super Target in Atwater!

The Super Target in Indio CA (next to Winco) was impressive and busy (but not as busy as Winco).

My friend in Colorado shops at a Super Target (just south of Denver - zip code 80124) and he loves it. He says it's busy all the time. He does all his grocery shopping there and says service and fresh is great!

Prehaps impressions are store specfic? Obviously, by measure of Target's lack of commitment to this format, there must be problems.

Or is it something else? The resistence to large format stores like Walmart usually come from certain types of neighborhoods and cities (?). Do those "types" of areas resist Target as well? If so, then maybe that explains Target's neglect of super center formats. It seems that Target's previous strategy of opening Super Targets in demographic areas that suited Walmart (where there was no resistence) did NOT work out well for them.

It seems that the areas that would like a Super Target are the areas that may oppose "large format" type discount combo stores with relative low wages? The areas that do not oppose these types of stores prefer Walmart over Target.

Well, I would love a Super Target in my area :idea:
You can get the "fresh" offerings of the usual Super Target right at the P-Fresh. There is almost no difference.

Maybe something different is going on in Denver. That has been a more successful market for Super Target so maybe the perimeters there still function more. I don't think Atwater ever had a chance- when it opened it was supposed to be first in a string of Super Targets planned in that area (Lathrop was also supposed to be a Super Target but opened as Target) but then they stopped developing Super Targets.

When I look at these supercenter formats, I still think Fred Meyer is the best, despite the issues with the non food side. Meijer does some things well and other things not as well. Wal Mart- same thing and very variable by store location. Wal Marts in my area have become very unpleasant in recent months and I hope something will change. Despite all of that, Super Target is bottom of the list and quite a ways down on the bottom of the list when I rank the supercenter concepts, with its weak hardlines mix, no garden program, and poor grocery program. Target just doesn't want to invest the labor needed in the grocery operation that is needed. It is really holding them back. Target has done well since the pandemic but we will see how they do the next couple years. Target does well in a growing economy when it can sell a lot of imported general merchandise that is marked way up. Or when all of the mall based and even power center based competitors are ordered "closed" by the government and Target is the "next best thing open where you can buy general merchandise" since Wal Mart was the only other thing open. When the money flow stops for such discretionary purchases, Target historically has run into trouble. A stronger grocery operation would make Target bullet proof.
Full-line grocery was forced on Target by Wall Street and they relied wholesalers to execute it with, as you note, hurt the implementation. Target's model has always been higher margin items over volume, volume as an ultimate source of profit being Walmart's strategy, combined with market domination. The problem with grocery is that higher margin lines are fresh or prepared foods with are labor and equipment intensive--lots of refrigeration to malfunction and rotation needs a lot of attention. Those kinds of departments don't work in a discount or big box store unless they are baked into the history of a chain like Fred Meyer or Meijer.

The model that probably would work best for Target would be some boutique-ish version of limited assortment, with upper-middle brands at prices below chains. The market place stores essentially do that, although some like the one near me were padded out to include meat and produce (which don't sell). That model differentiates them from Trader Joe's (more name brands) and Aldi (more upscale) but doesn't require a lot of labor. The other thing that works for them locally is having an expanded beer and wine selection. The beer is something that Trader Joe's doesn't heavily stock, and while they have to compete with regular supers for the popular brands, padding it out with well known brewpub brands is an easy way to cut the difference and appeal to their base. Target's emphasis on softlines is a weakness, not so much because of what happens in economic downturns as the need to follow fashion and the tight supply lines. Walmart did better than anyone in the last recession, but only for a short time---it was basically a year or so of better quarters and then flatline or decline. By focusing on margins, Target has the more robust model, esp. as the mid market competition like JCPenney and Sears either disappears or flounders. Walmart has nowhere to go to build volume---their last big expansion was into electronics which are commodity items where the profit is in things like warranties.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by Romr123 »

buckguy wrote: December 5th, 2021, 5:28 am
Full-line grocery was forced on Target by Wall Street and they relied wholesalers to execute it with, as you note, hurt the implementation. Target's model has always been higher margin items over volume, volume as an ultimate source of profit being Walmart's strategy, combined with market domination. The problem with grocery is that higher margin lines are fresh or prepared foods with are labor and equipment intensive--lots of refrigeration to malfunction and rotation needs a lot of attention. Those kinds of departments don't work in a discount or big box store unless they are baked into the history of a chain like Fred Meyer or Meijer.

The model that probably would work best for Target would be some boutique-ish version of limited assortment, with upper-middle brands at prices below chains. The market place stores essentially do that, although some like the one near me were padded out to include meat and produce (which don't sell). That model differentiates them from Trader Joe's (more name brands) and Aldi (more upscale) but doesn't require a lot of labor. The other thing that works for them locally is having an expanded beer and wine selection. The beer is something that Trader Joe's doesn't heavily stock, and while they have to compete with regular supers for the popular brands, padding it out with well known brewpub brands is an easy way to cut the difference and appeal to their base. Target's emphasis on softlines is a weakness, not so much because of what happens in economic downturns as the need to follow fashion and the tight supply lines. Walmart did better than anyone in the last recession, but only for a short time---it was basically a year or so of better quarters and then flatline or decline. By focusing on margins, Target has the more robust model, esp. as the mid market competition like JCPenney and Sears either disappears or flounders. Walmart has nowhere to go to build volume---their last big expansion was into electronics which are commodity items where the profit is in things like warranties.
You make a lot of sense here. I'd mentioned several months ago that I wonder if a strategy of "Trader Joe-ing" or "Lidl-ing" might be a way out for them....there are a LOT of their locations which are nowhere near a TJ.

Perhaps a JV/spin of food/liquor (akin to CVS) might let them live to fight another day with food. They do have some interesting, reasonably innovative private label products (which might be useful to expand Lidl's offerings). They have reasonably segregated in-store real estate. The single stores in 75k cities (which haven't a prayer of attracting at TJ's) would be all over it, and the ability to get TJ's stuff without having to deal with the crowds/parking would be a winner. I've not been to a Lidl...seems their only innovation is a Subway-scaled bake-off...but wonder if there could be something here.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by veteran+ »

storewanderer wrote: December 4th, 2021, 1:51 pm
veteran+ wrote: December 3rd, 2021, 9:36 am I will have to check out that Super Target in Atwater!

The Super Target in Indio CA (next to Winco) was impressive and busy (but not as busy as Winco).

My friend in Colorado shops at a Super Target (just south of Denver - zip code 80124) and he loves it. He says it's busy all the time. He does all his grocery shopping there and says service and fresh is great!

Prehaps impressions are store specfic? Obviously, by measure of Target's lack of commitment to this format, there must be problems.

Or is it something else? The resistence to large format stores like Walmart usually come from certain types of neighborhoods and cities (?). Do those "types" of areas resist Target as well? If so, then maybe that explains Target's neglect of super center formats. It seems that Target's previous strategy of opening Super Targets in demographic areas that suited Walmart (where there was no resistence) did NOT work out well for them.

It seems that the areas that would like a Super Target are the areas that may oppose "large format" type discount combo stores with relative low wages? The areas that do not oppose these types of stores prefer Walmart over Target.

Well, I would love a Super Target in my area :idea:
You can get the "fresh" offerings of the usual Super Target right at the P-Fresh. There is almost no difference.

Maybe something different is going on in Denver. That has been a more successful market for Super Target so maybe the perimeters there still function more. I don't think Atwater ever had a chance- when it opened it was supposed to be first in a string of Super Targets planned in that area (Lathrop was also supposed to be a Super Target but opened as Target) but then they stopped developing Super Targets.

When I look at these supercenter formats, I still think Fred Meyer is the best, despite the issues with the non food side. Meijer does some things well and other things not as well. Wal Mart- same thing and very variable by store location. Wal Marts in my area have become very unpleasant in recent months and I hope something will change. Despite all of that, Super Target is bottom of the list and quite a ways down on the bottom of the list when I rank the supercenter concepts, with its weak hardlines mix, no garden program, and poor grocery program. Target just doesn't want to invest the labor needed in the grocery operation that is needed. It is really holding them back. Target has done well since the pandemic but we will see how they do the next couple years. Target does well in a growing economy when it can sell a lot of imported general merchandise that is marked way up. Or when all of the mall based and even power center based competitors are ordered "closed" by the government and Target is the "next best thing open where you can buy general merchandise" since Wal Mart was the only other thing open. When the money flow stops for such discretionary purchases, Target historically has run into trouble. A stronger grocery operation would make Target bullet proof.
The very few Super Targets I have visited were very different than P-Fresh Targets, as far a both fresh and center store variety. Perhaps that has changed?

I would never shop at a Walmart (Super or Sams), ever! But................................I sure wish Fred Meyer, Meijer, etc. were present in this market!
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: December 5th, 2021, 9:40 am

The very few Super Targets I have visited were very different than P-Fresh Targets, as far a both fresh and center store variety. Perhaps that has changed?

I would never shop at a Walmart (Super or Sams), ever! But................................I sure wish Fred Meyer, Meijer, etc. were present in this market!
The Target in Reno (built as a Target Greatland) has longer grocery aisles and the center store is very similar to a Super Target in feel. I think the Target Greatland Stores were built to be easily expanded into Super Targets. Items have multiple facings and it "feels" like a normal grocery store in center store. The other two Targets in the area (Sparks and Carson City) have short grocery aisles with single facings of many items and feel like a drugstore grocery aisle. My perception is Reno has better product variety in center store however for the items I go to buy at Target in grocery, I can go to any of these three stores and find what I am looking for. The items I buy at Target are some branded items in what the CA grocers have determined are unpopular flavors I guess, so not carried at other grocers here. Yet somehow these SKUs make it nationwide at Target and Wal Mart. Save Mart has cut one of the items in recently and Wal Mart has the items as well, but none of the other grocers do in this market.

On perishable items (dairy, frozen, etc.) the Super Target I would expect has more SKUs since it has larger refrigeration units. The P-Fresh does feel lacking in meat and related products (bacon, etc.) so I suppose the Super Target has more SKUs there, I guess I don't pay as much attention to SKUs I am not buying. The P-Fresh does not seem to be lacking in other refrigerated categories (cheese, yogurt) and seems to have all the SKUs of a normal store. It is just an oddly merchandised disjointed grocery program. I hesitate to call it poor, but it is sure unpredictable what they will and won't have.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by Super S »

Let's move back to the original topic of Mall 205....

The Target at Mall 205 is a two story building which is a former Montgomery Ward. It has a cart escalator and a few other things unique to the two story layout. Target at one point was calling this the largest Target in the state of Oregon, but I am not sure if this is the case still. There is a Pfresh type of grocery department on the lower level, but I have not been in the actual store in a couple years.

Jantzen Beach had a similar store, but it was replaced with a conventional, new-build Target when the mall was redeveloped several years back.

Knowing what happened at Jantzen Beach made me wonder if a similar change was coming to Mall 205.

As far as I know there are no Super Target locations in the state of Oregon. Target actually has a bigger presence than Walmart in the Portland area though.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by submariner »

Super S wrote: December 5th, 2021, 12:41 pm Let's move back to the original topic of Mall 205....
Yes, Please keep this on-topic.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by ClownLoach »

submariner wrote: December 9th, 2021, 5:34 am
Super S wrote: December 5th, 2021, 12:41 pm Let's move back to the original topic of Mall 205....
Yes, Please keep this on-topic.
In a roundabout way I think we have done that. Target of old would likely work to rebuild into a standard prototype like they did in Jantzen Beach. Target of today doesn't care about consistency of facilities. So they are very unlikely to make major changes to the facility despite the past history across town. The actual mall space is teeny-tiny and probably will just be walled off to die. When peak season hits Target and Home Depot have a variety of long vacant RadioShack, Suncoast or TGBY spaces to use as seasonal storage so they don't have to rent storage trailers. The end.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by SamSpade »

Hoping that bringing this thread up does *NOT* cause it to stray off topic again.
Here is a local media report about how the new owners of Marketplace 205 tried to boot tenants with 2-week notice, but then relented and gave until the end of March.
https://www.wweek.com/news/business/202 ... yd-center/
I'm not sure what happened to Providence's large office space they had in the center, perhaps that relocated as well (or went 100% remote). I haven't been over there in some time.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by Super S »

SamSpade wrote: March 28th, 2022, 11:18 am Hoping that bringing this thread up does *NOT* cause it to stray off topic again.
Here is a local media report about how the new owners of Marketplace 205 tried to boot tenants with 2-week notice, but then relented and gave until the end of March.
https://www.wweek.com/news/business/202 ... yd-center/
I'm not sure what happened to Providence's large office space they had in the center, perhaps that relocated as well (or went 100% remote). I haven't been over there in some time.

Mall 205 nearly died once before. If it wasn't for Target and Home Depot moving in, I don't know that the inside mall would have lasted this long. Although I don't know that Home Depot brought many customers to the inside of the mall.

It seems like they are evolving in to a "power center" type of format. It will be interesting to see what happens to the existing Burlington store on 82nd (which is an old Fred Meyer) if they are indeed planning a Mall 205 location as Willamette Week hints.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by storewanderer »

SamSpade wrote: March 28th, 2022, 11:18 am Hoping that bringing this thread up does *NOT* cause it to stray off topic again.
Here is a local media report about how the new owners of Marketplace 205 tried to boot tenants with 2-week notice, but then relented and gave until the end of March.
https://www.wweek.com/news/business/202 ... yd-center/
I'm not sure what happened to Providence's large office space they had in the center, perhaps that relocated as well (or went 100% remote). I haven't been over there in some time.
The best part of this mentions how BBB giving up its space is what created this opportunity. It is like- the mall management wouldn't mess with the big chain BBB and try to kick them out, but when it is a few small retailers, it is open season.
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