Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

babs
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by babs »

I was at the Mall 295 Target store today. Wow is all I can say. I've been to many Target remodels but this is the cheapest I've seen. They repainted the walls and replaced the signage. And they walled over that mall entrance. Plus they redid cosmetics but that was it. At other stores, they redo the flooring, replace fixtures, redo the checkstands, redo the food service. This was the first in-store Target Starbucks and it didn't get redone. The old food avenue is still there but is being for online orders. At other stores, they have ripped it out. I guess it's true that chains spend less in remodels in lower income areas.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by ClownLoach »

babs wrote: November 28th, 2021, 7:37 pm I was at the Mall 295 Target store today. Wow is all I can say. I've been to many Target remodels but this is the cheapest I've seen. They repainted the walls and replaced the signage. And they walled over that mall entrance. Plus they redid cosmetics but that was it. At other stores, they redo the flooring, replace fixtures, redo the checkstands, redo the food service. This was the first in-store Target Starbucks and it didn't get redone. The old food avenue is still there but is being for online orders. At other stores, they have ripped it out. I guess it's true that chains spend less in remodels in lower income areas.
Half the 2021 remodels seem to be expanding the grocery side to as large of a footprint as a former SuperTarget but no service deli or bakery - and these stores got the new painted concrete floors and/or blackout warehouse ceilings at the front end (Encinitas, Redlands and Camarillo for example). The other half I agree are super scaled back remodels where no equipment is replaced - all just rearranging of existing fixtures. They did this in nice areas too such as Tustin where they actually "downgraded" a former prototype store at 'the District' center. The linoleum is a disaster of mismatched strips of tile everywhere and looks like something you would expect from Kmart. By the way this is the 4th full remodel for this store that opened in 2008. I'm not sure what the strategy is right now at Target but I agree with you that the lesser remodels look REALLY cheap.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by storewanderer »

ClownLoach wrote: December 1st, 2021, 12:13 am
babs wrote: November 28th, 2021, 7:37 pm I was at the Mall 295 Target store today. Wow is all I can say. I've been to many Target remodels but this is the cheapest I've seen. They repainted the walls and replaced the signage. And they walled over that mall entrance. Plus they redid cosmetics but that was it. At other stores, they redo the flooring, replace fixtures, redo the checkstands, redo the food service. This was the first in-store Target Starbucks and it didn't get redone. The old food avenue is still there but is being for online orders. At other stores, they have ripped it out. I guess it's true that chains spend less in remodels in lower income areas.
Half the 2021 remodels seem to be expanding the grocery side to as large of a footprint as a former SuperTarget but no service deli or bakery - and these stores got the new painted concrete floors and/or blackout warehouse ceilings at the front end (Encinitas, Redlands and Camarillo for example). The other half I agree are super scaled back remodels where no equipment is replaced - all just rearranging of existing fixtures. They did this in nice areas too such as Tustin where they actually "downgraded" a former prototype store at 'the District' center. The linoleum is a disaster of mismatched strips of tile everywhere and looks like something you would expect from Kmart. By the way this is the 4th full remodel for this store that opened in 2008. I'm not sure what the strategy is right now at Target but I agree with you that the lesser remodels look REALLY cheap.
The more recent remodels are being done cheaply from what I am seeing.

The Reno one is still in progress or I hope was still in progress a few weeks ago because the flooring looked awful (original flooring to late 90's).
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by Bagels »

storewanderer wrote: December 1st, 2021, 10:15 pm
ClownLoach wrote: December 1st, 2021, 12:13 am
babs wrote: November 28th, 2021, 7:37 pm I was at the Mall 295 Target store today. Wow is all I can say. I've been to many Target remodels but this is the cheapest I've seen. They repainted the walls and replaced the signage. And they walled over that mall entrance. Plus they redid cosmetics but that was it. At other stores, they redo the flooring, replace fixtures, redo the checkstands, redo the food service. This was the first in-store Target Starbucks and it didn't get redone. The old food avenue is still there but is being for online orders. At other stores, they have ripped it out. I guess it's true that chains spend less in remodels in lower income areas.
Half the 2021 remodels seem to be expanding the grocery side to as large of a footprint as a former SuperTarget but no service deli or bakery - and these stores got the new painted concrete floors and/or blackout warehouse ceilings at the front end (Encinitas, Redlands and Camarillo for example). The other half I agree are super scaled back remodels where no equipment is replaced - all just rearranging of existing fixtures. They did this in nice areas too such as Tustin where they actually "downgraded" a former prototype store at 'the District' center. The linoleum is a disaster of mismatched strips of tile everywhere and looks like something you would expect from Kmart. By the way this is the 4th full remodel for this store that opened in 2008. I'm not sure what the strategy is right now at Target but I agree with you that the lesser remodels look REALLY cheap.
The more recent remodels are being done cheaply from what I am seeing.

The Reno one is still in progress or I hope was still in progress a few weeks ago because the flooring looked awful (original flooring to late 90's).
Targets remodels are definitely not standard. They remodeled two stores simultaneously near me. One store received a thorough redo, whereas the other was much more lightly refreshed. The store that was more thoroughly remodeled is 15yo and was already more sleek and modern than the other store, which is 30yo and still largely retains its 1980s layout. Another store nearby was renovated afterward, and received an even more thorough renovation that resembles that of the 15yo store. You wouldn't believe this store is 35yo (nor does it retain the 1980s layout).

My best guess is that at this point, the aging stores that haven't been renovated are largely low-performing stores, or stores scheduled for replacement / closure (e.g. unable to come to terms with a lease extension).

All of the remodels expanded grocery, but the selection is not even close to that of a Super Target. Perishables remain heavily limited, for example, and grocery often lacks selection (e.g. only the best selling frozen entrée varieties from Stouffers). I thought that Target was going to standardize their stores, and rip out the full-service Super departments, but that isn't happening. Walmart has been removing full-service departments as well.

Circa 2002, Super K-Mart removed its full service departments, but ultimately re-opened the deli and bakery (in stores that had them). So the trend isn't new, but K-Mart's full-service departments were very underrated. The $1 sandwich selection decreased overtime, but was still a steal.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by Romr123 »

At least around here (SE Michigan) there are three different Target implementations---non-Pfresh, limited Pfresh and full Pfresh (for lack of description)...mostly having to do with assortment--there are a couple non Pfresh stores in Michigan---I suspect they're either really small or remote. The limited Pfresh stores actually are pretty good...they seem to get enough labor to keep things (even perishables) well-rotated and the shelves are well stocked. The full Pfresh stores are actually pretty terrible--they don't seem to get enough labor to stay on top of things--at the one nearby I one time found 2 year expired (!) nuts in the produce area---expiration 2019....to the point that I don't even shop there any more.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by storewanderer »

Bagels wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 1:25 pm
Circa 2002, Super K-Mart removed its full service departments, but ultimately re-opened the deli and bakery (in stores that had them). So the trend isn't new, but K-Mart's full-service departments were very underrated. The $1 sandwich selection decreased overtime, but was still a steal.
Super Kmart bakery/deli program was basically in line with a mid market grocer's programs. They had some execution issues as would be expected. They used mid-level suppliers for their products but priced them below market. For instance in Reno their bakery was largely identical to Scolaris and various smaller CA chains; same bakeoff stuff from Bunzl or Richs.

Deli and Bakery were never removed from the Super Kmart in Reno; however there was a period where they removed service meat/seafood and also there were a couple of "kiosks" for deli and bakery out in the open space between drug and the grocery aisles and those got removed. I don't recall exactly what they deli kiosk did (I think it was sandwiches and prepack type stuff) and recall the bakery kiosk did things like cookies and cupcakes. However the wall-based deli service case for lunchmeat and fried hot food and the wall-based bakery for cakes/donuts was present and operating the whole time. Same for the one in Carson City and some of the others I went to during that era (in Colorado)- all had operating bakery/deli.

Super Kmart attempted to run a consistent bakery, deli, and meat program in all locations. While grocery varied by location depending which wholesaler they used most of the time (except that period where they went 100% Fleming), the bakery, deli, and meat programs were sourced through other means to be consistent across the chain.

This location- appears to have kept its deli kiosk to the end including the $1 subs.


As far as Target goes, the first Super Target I went into was north of Denver around 2000. This was supplied by Supervalu for grocery and it had full bakery/deli with employees walking around in chef suits with chef hats. Yet the departments just seemed "off" for some reason. Large spaces but not much out. Nothing looked exactly appealing. However they had ample space for the departments and a Meijer-like layout for them. The store wasn't doing much grocery business but the non food area was busier.

Fast forward to today and the last Super Target I was in was Atwater, CA perhaps 3 years ago. This was probably one of the last Super Targets opened. Deli was a perhaps six foot case with a service bell and didn't even look open but was open in the middle of the day, only thing there was lunchmeat. Bakery was very lightly stocked, self serve case had some items in it, but not many. Produce was largely a single layer of stuff spread around, not particularly fresh or appealing looking. Center store was great, large mix, good pricing, and well laid out. Basically it felt like the P-Fresh with a few random loose bakery items and that unstaffed tiny lunchmeat counter.

From 2000 to now I continue to say Super Target is the worst "Supercenter" concept I've ever seen. On the grocery side, their fresh departments are just not good, a poor effort is a polite way to put it. They have gotten better with center store over time yet seem to have gotten worse with fresh departments. The effort is so poor on perimeter service departments in grocery, it is almost like they are trying to do bad. Similar to their handling of categories like garden in the past, it seems if something involves effort/talent/labor they don't want to deal with it.


This post probably doesn't belong in this thread.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by Romr123 »

I shopped Super Kmart regularly until they closed in about 2017. They indeed had a very mid-market deli/bakery right to the end--I seem to recall a service meat/fish counter which was unused.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by veteran+ »

I will have to check out that Super Target in Atwater!

The Super Target in Indio CA (next to Winco) was impressive and busy (but not as busy as Winco).

My friend in Colorado shops at a Super Target (just south of Denver - zip code 80124) and he loves it. He says it's busy all the time. He does all his grocery shopping there and says service and fresh is great!

Prehaps impressions are store specfic? Obviously, by measure of Target's lack of commitment to this format, there must be problems.

Or is it something else? The resistence to large format stores like Walmart usually come from certain types of neighborhoods and cities (?). Do those "types" of areas resist Target as well? If so, then maybe that explains Target's neglect of super center formats. It seems that Target's previous strategy of opening Super Targets in demographic areas that suited Walmart (where there was no resistence) did NOT work out well for them.

It seems that the areas that would like a Super Target are the areas that may oppose "large format" type discount combo stores with relative low wages? The areas that do not oppose these types of stores prefer Walmart over Target.

Well, I would love a Super Target in my area :idea:
Last edited by veteran+ on December 3rd, 2021, 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by ClownLoach »

veteran+ wrote: December 3rd, 2021, 9:36 am I will have to check out that Super Target in Atwater!

The Super Target in Indio CA (next to Winco) was impressive and busy (but not as busy as Winco).

My friend in Colorado shops at a Super Target (just south of Denver - zip code 80124) and he loves it. He says it's busy all the time. He does all his grocery shopping there and says service and fresh is great!

Prehaps impressions are store specfic? Obviously, by measure of Target's lack of commitment to this format, there must be problems.

Or is it something else? The resistence to large format stores like Walmart usually come from certain types of neighborhoods and cities (?). Do those "types" of areas resist Target as well? If so, then maybe that explains Target's neglect of super center formats. It seems that Target's previous strategy of opening Super Targets in demographic areas that suited Walmart (where there was no resistence) did NOT work out well for them.

It seems that the areas that would like a Super Target are the areas that may oppose "large format" type discount combo stores with realtive low wages? The areas that do not oppose these types of stores prefer Walmart over Target.

Well, I would love a Super Target in my area :idea:
I think the SuperTarget format was doomed by the spread of anti-Walmart type zoning regulations. Target was late to the game after Walmart had a decade or so of Supercenter format growth. Then about the same time as SuperTarget came around many cities wanted to keep Walmart Supercenters out in their massive expansion period and passed zoning regulations that prohibited stores with building attributes such as "no general merchandise store over 120,000 square feet that sells food in more than 10% of the sales floor and a pharmacy" (since they couldn't specifically ban Walmart by name). The only problem is that any such regulation that blocked Walmart Supercenters would also block a SuperTarget. So they never were able to build enough of them to matter, and most were built in far suburbs on the fringes of new developments where they never got enough sales volume. Then the economy crashed in 2009 and most of those new SuperTarget locations were in the areas most impacted by the wave of foreclosures. I remember shopping one in Western Phoenix (not sure what city exactly) that was in a massive and completely vacant big box strip mall. Every single store was boarded up, most were never occupied, and all the parking lots were fenced off except for the area in front of the brand new SuperTarget. I'm guessing it isn't there now. Seems to be the same story out in Murrieta where a store was built near I-215 sometime at least 15 years ago and only now is the development nearby finally filling in (including a new Costco across the highway). This Murrieta location is off in a corner with many fenced off lots that never built in, and the only other box built is a Tractor Supply that seems very out of place. It feels like at least half of the SuperTarget Stores I've seen are in locations like this which probably make them amongst the bottom volume stores in their company.
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Re: Changes coming to Portland's Mall 205?

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: December 3rd, 2021, 9:36 am I will have to check out that Super Target in Atwater!

The Super Target in Indio CA (next to Winco) was impressive and busy (but not as busy as Winco).

My friend in Colorado shops at a Super Target (just south of Denver - zip code 80124) and he loves it. He says it's busy all the time. He does all his grocery shopping there and says service and fresh is great!

Prehaps impressions are store specfic? Obviously, by measure of Target's lack of commitment to this format, there must be problems.

Or is it something else? The resistence to large format stores like Walmart usually come from certain types of neighborhoods and cities (?). Do those "types" of areas resist Target as well? If so, then maybe that explains Target's neglect of super center formats. It seems that Target's previous strategy of opening Super Targets in demographic areas that suited Walmart (where there was no resistence) did NOT work out well for them.

It seems that the areas that would like a Super Target are the areas that may oppose "large format" type discount combo stores with relative low wages? The areas that do not oppose these types of stores prefer Walmart over Target.

Well, I would love a Super Target in my area :idea:
You can get the "fresh" offerings of the usual Super Target right at the P-Fresh. There is almost no difference.

Maybe something different is going on in Denver. That has been a more successful market for Super Target so maybe the perimeters there still function more. I don't think Atwater ever had a chance- when it opened it was supposed to be first in a string of Super Targets planned in that area (Lathrop was also supposed to be a Super Target but opened as Target) but then they stopped developing Super Targets.

When I look at these supercenter formats, I still think Fred Meyer is the best, despite the issues with the non food side. Meijer does some things well and other things not as well. Wal Mart- same thing and very variable by store location. Wal Marts in my area have become very unpleasant in recent months and I hope something will change. Despite all of that, Super Target is bottom of the list and quite a ways down on the bottom of the list when I rank the supercenter concepts, with its weak hardlines mix, no garden program, and poor grocery program. Target just doesn't want to invest the labor needed in the grocery operation that is needed. It is really holding them back. Target has done well since the pandemic but we will see how they do the next couple years. Target does well in a growing economy when it can sell a lot of imported general merchandise that is marked way up. Or when all of the mall based and even power center based competitors are ordered "closed" by the government and Target is the "next best thing open where you can buy general merchandise" since Wal Mart was the only other thing open. When the money flow stops for such discretionary purchases, Target historically has run into trouble. A stronger grocery operation would make Target bullet proof.
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