Target 2022

Predicting the demise of Sears & Kmart since 2017!
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Re: Target 2022

Post by ClownLoach »

I feel like I'm potentially surfacing the wrong thread but I didn't see a 2023 and didn't want to start another.

Target keeps a list of upcoming stores on their "A Bullseye View" press info website. There were probably 30 to 40 small format locations listed in development amongst others last time I checked a month or so ago. It appears the list has been dramatically slashed. There were at least a dozen locations currently "coming soon" in California and now there are only 4. I don't know of 8+ new California locations that opened in the last month since last time I looked at it aside from Grass Valley.

The list seemed to be heavily reduced nationwide. Many of the small formats included sketches or renderings of their "unique" storefronts or locations. I could be wrong here but I think Target has slashed this small store program drastically with no public announcement.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by storewanderer »

Grass Valley is actually 90k square feet so I hesitate to call it small format. Kmart didn't feel quite that big to me.

There won't be any public announcement of slashing development of small format, but it will send shock waves through a lot of commercial developers who have sent a lot of tenants packing, including established grocers, in hopes of landing a small format Target. Joke is about to be on them.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by ClownLoach »

storewanderer wrote: April 17th, 2023, 11:44 pm Grass Valley is actually 90k square feet so I hesitate to call it small format. Kmart didn't feel quite that big to me.

There won't be any public announcement of slashing development of small format, but it will send shock waves through a lot of commercial developers who have sent a lot of tenants packing, including established grocers, in hopes of landing a small format Target. Joke is about to be on them.
To be clear the list was all stores, all formats. It just so happened that about 75% of them were small format which I define as anything 50K and below. At this point in time there are only 11 small format left in development, and of those only 6 are truly small (19K to 33K). There seem to be a ton of new 140K+ listings. No announcement needed; small format Target is dead and SuperTarget size buildings are their future again.

Yep the greedy landlords who were hoping for a high paying Target Express or Amazon Fresh are going to get exactly what they deserve as both concepts crash and burn.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by storewanderer »

ClownLoach wrote: April 18th, 2023, 10:53 pm

To be clear the list was all stores, all formats. It just so happened that about 75% of them were small format which I define as anything 50K and below. At this point in time there are only 11 small format left in development, and of those only 6 are truly small (19K to 33K). There seem to be a ton of new 140K+ listings. No announcement needed; small format Target is dead and SuperTarget size buildings are their future again.

Yep the greedy landlords who were hoping for a high paying Target Express or Amazon Fresh are going to get exactly what they deserve as both concepts crash and burn.
I find it interesting they are finding so many new large boxes to develop. I wonder what the timeline on some of these is going to be.

In any case I am not surprised. Their small format was usually very underwhelming and I think it diluted their brand. When they first opened and they had lower pricing than other stores around the cities, I did give them that, it was a good deal. But as time has gone on they have escalated pricing in these small format stores so at this point the pricing is like a CVS or Walgreens on many items if they even have the items in stock in the first place which is a big if.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by ClownLoach »

storewanderer wrote: April 18th, 2023, 11:29 pm
ClownLoach wrote: April 18th, 2023, 10:53 pm

To be clear the list was all stores, all formats. It just so happened that about 75% of them were small format which I define as anything 50K and below. At this point in time there are only 11 small format left in development, and of those only 6 are truly small (19K to 33K). There seem to be a ton of new 140K+ listings. No announcement needed; small format Target is dead and SuperTarget size buildings are their future again.

Yep the greedy landlords who were hoping for a high paying Target Express or Amazon Fresh are going to get exactly what they deserve as both concepts crash and burn.
I find it interesting they are finding so many new large boxes to develop. I wonder what the timeline on some of these is going to be.

In any case I am not surprised. Their small format was usually very underwhelming and I think it diluted their brand. When they first opened and they had lower pricing than other stores around the cities, I did give them that, it was a good deal. But as time has gone on they have escalated pricing in these small format stores so at this point the pricing is like a CVS or Walgreens on many items if they even have the items in stock in the first place which is a big if.
Generally once Target announces the location on their website it is 24 months max. Very rare that one ever falls behind, in most cases they finish their building very early and then it sits for months or longer. Although they've been better about that the last few years. They used to only do grand openings twice a year or so and would open many stores on the same day for a national event.

I can only think of a few times a location fell behind, and there was usually a disaster, natural or governmental (the infamous Hollywood store that sat unfinished and rotting for a decade - I wonder how that's holding up now that it's finally open?).

So far the new locations around 140K plus or minus a few thousand are going into Danbury, CT; Delaware/ a couple in Florida; Windward Mall in Oahu (I think that is replacing a Macy's that closed not long ago); Waukie, IA; Southern Pines, NC; Grand Island, NE; Old Bridge, NJ; Bronx, NY; Yonkers, NY; Boiling Springs, SC; a bunch in Texas including New Caney, Prosper and Portland along with a good size 111K in Dallas; and Provo, UT.

Several others coming in around 100K so probably existing building takeovers such as San Fernando, CA; Quincy, IL; Jamestown, NY; Lake Success, NY; Spanish Fork, UT; and Teays Valley, WV.

All the other remaining small and medium formats listed have been in the queue for some time now, so I'm guessing they are either already built or otherwise locked in at this point. The message is still clear: until now they were focused on trying to open 30-40 small formats a year, and low single digit counts of large format stores. The most recent large stores had all been converted Kmart and other buildings; very few full size new Target stores have been constructed from scratch in the last ten years or so. It sounds like they're realizing that they're better off operationally when they can build a store designed to meet their needs, instead of trying to make an existing building work as well as it can. No old Kmart or whatever else was built for the omnichannel uses Target needs, and it sounds like the cases where they're remodeling to try to meet these needs are failing dismally (like the stores with the rolling stockroom racking that only one employee can access at a time). Better off building new from here on out.
Last edited by ClownLoach on April 21st, 2023, 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by veteran+ »

ClownLoach wrote: April 21st, 2023, 9:57 am
storewanderer wrote: April 18th, 2023, 11:29 pm
ClownLoach wrote: April 18th, 2023, 10:53 pm

To be clear the list was all stores, all formats. It just so happened that about 75% of them were small format which I define as anything 50K and below. At this point in time there are only 11 small format left in development, and of those only 6 are truly small (19K to 33K). There seem to be a ton of new 140K+ listings. No announcement needed; small format Target is dead and SuperTarget size buildings are their future again.

Yep the greedy landlords who were hoping for a high paying Target Express or Amazon Fresh are going to get exactly what they deserve as both concepts crash and burn.
I find it interesting they are finding so many new large boxes to develop. I wonder what the timeline on some of these is going to be.

In any case I am not surprised. Their small format was usually very underwhelming and I think it diluted their brand. When they first opened and they had lower pricing than other stores around the cities, I did give them that, it was a good deal. But as time has gone on they have escalated pricing in these small format stores so at this point the pricing is like a CVS or Walgreens on many items if they even have the items in stock in the first place which is a big if.
Generally once Target announces the location on their website it is 24 months max. Very rare that one ever falls behind, in most cases they finish their building very early and then it sits for months or longer. Although they've been better about that the last few years. They used to only do grand openings twice a year or so and would open many stores on the same day for a national event.

I can only think of a few times a location fell behind, and there was usually a disaster, natural or governmental (the infamous Hollywood store that sat unfinished and rotting for a decade - I wonder how that's holding up now that it's finally open?).
I can check out that store and report.

Do you know the location?
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Re: Target 2022

Post by babs »

veteran+ wrote: April 21st, 2023, 10:24 am
ClownLoach wrote: April 21st, 2023, 9:57 am
storewanderer wrote: April 18th, 2023, 11:29 pm

I find it interesting they are finding so many new large boxes to develop. I wonder what the timeline on some of these is going to be.

In any case I am not surprised. Their small format was usually very underwhelming and I think it diluted their brand. When they first opened and they had lower pricing than other stores around the cities, I did give them that, it was a good deal. But as time has gone on they have escalated pricing in these small format stores so at this point the pricing is like a CVS or Walgreens on many items if they even have the items in stock in the first place which is a big if.
Generally once Target announces the location on their website it is 24 months max. Very rare that one ever falls behind, in most cases they finish their building very early and then it sits for months or longer. Although they've been better about that the last few years. They used to only do grand openings twice a year or so and would open many stores on the same day for a national event.

I can only think of a few times a location fell behind, and there was usually a disaster, natural or governmental (the infamous Hollywood store that sat unfinished and rotting for a decade - I wonder how that's holding up now that it's finally open?).
I can check out that store and report.

Do you know the location?
Target has struggled since the pandemic opening stores on time. The Cedar Mills, OR target was months behind schedule. There have been others. Also, many remodels fell way behind schedule due to the challenges with vendors hitting deadlines for things like fixtures.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by storewanderer »

Other than when dealing with a government project, I've never seen anything as drawn out or disorganized as a Target remodel in 2021 or 2022.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by ClownLoach »

babs wrote: April 21st, 2023, 1:28 pm
veteran+ wrote: April 21st, 2023, 10:24 am
ClownLoach wrote: April 21st, 2023, 9:57 am

Generally once Target announces the location on their website it is 24 months max. Very rare that one ever falls behind, in most cases they finish their building very early and then it sits for months or longer. Although they've been better about that the last few years. They used to only do grand openings twice a year or so and would open many stores on the same day for a national event.

I can only think of a few times a location fell behind, and there was usually a disaster, natural or governmental (the infamous Hollywood store that sat unfinished and rotting for a decade - I wonder how that's holding up now that it's finally open?).
I can check out that store and report.

Do you know the location?
Target has struggled since the pandemic opening stores on time. The Cedar Mills, OR target was months behind schedule. There have been others. Also, many remodels fell way behind schedule due to the challenges with vendors hitting deadlines for things like fixtures.
I've actually been impressed with the efforts Target has gone through for remodels in spite of supply chain issues. They've had contractors "create" things out of thin air that you wouldn't notice unless you were really looking closely. For example there must have been issues with fiberglass paneling for restroom hallways so they had their contractors very carefully sand plywood down and sponge paint "Target red textures" then apply numerous coats of sealant and install metal trim until the proper panels arrived. I noticed the plywood hallways by accident and then saw them on several other recent remodel stores. Later they swapped out the plywood with the correct custom "Target" paneling. They also sourced lightly used or recycled fixtures for many new sets then swapped later when they arrived. I've heard of 2021 new store openings of box stores where as many as 10,000 different fixtures were missing and they had to make it work with what was available (yes I'm sure much of that number is peg hooks but I saw some really creative stores).

But as far as the posting of a Target on their Bullseye view site - it's 24 months or less and I'm confident they stay within that timeline because they don't "make it official" until everything is approved and the builder is waiting to show up and start the job. They might plan for an opening in 10 months and totally blow it, taking 20 months instead, but they still get open within 24 months of official announcement. I'm aware of several cases where we "knew they were coming" for years before the official posting, but before it's on there Target will always say something to the effect of "we can't talk about that possible location, but watch for more news soon." That may drive the perception of stores being many years "behind schedule." Until it's on the website in their opinion there isn't a schedule.

The Target that sat mostly built for 12 years was at Sunset and Western in Hollywood. That was taken down by numerous lawsuits over building height. It finally opened in late 2020. The lawsuits basically said the building should be torn down and rebuilt a few feet shorter which was completely ridiculous. The store is 150,000 Sq ft and I would guess based on the size and original expected opening around 2007-2008 it was planned to be a SuperTarget. I just can't imagine that they haven't had all sorts of problems with the building basically sitting open to the elements for over a decade.
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Re: Target 2022

Post by ClownLoach »

ClownLoach wrote: April 22nd, 2023, 12:05 am
babs wrote: April 21st, 2023, 1:28 pm
veteran+ wrote: April 21st, 2023, 10:24 am

I can check out that store and report.

Do you know the location?
Target has struggled since the pandemic opening stores on time. The Cedar Mills, OR target was months behind schedule. There have been others. Also, many remodels fell way behind schedule due to the challenges with vendors hitting deadlines for things like fixtures.
I've actually been impressed with the efforts Target has gone through for remodels in spite of supply chain issues. They've had contractors "create" things out of thin air that you wouldn't notice unless you were really looking closely. For example there must have been issues with fiberglass paneling for restroom hallways so they had their contractors very carefully sand plywood down and sponge paint "Target red textures" then apply numerous coats of sealant and install metal trim until the proper panels arrived. I noticed the plywood hallways by accident and then saw them on several other recent remodel stores. Later they swapped out the plywood with the correct custom "Target" paneling. They also sourced lightly used or recycled fixtures for many new sets then swapped later when they arrived. I've heard of 2021 new store openings of box stores where as many as 10,000 different fixtures were missing and they had to make it work with what was available (yes I'm sure much of that number is peg hooks but I saw some really creative stores).

But as far as the posting of a Target on their Bullseye view site - it's 24 months or less and I'm confident they stay within that timeline because they don't "make it official" until everything is approved and the builder is waiting to show up and start the job. They might plan for an opening in 10 months and totally blow it, taking 20 months instead, but they still get open within 24 months of official announcement. I'm aware of several cases where we "knew they were coming" for years before the official posting, but before it's on there Target will always say something to the effect of "we can't talk about that possible location, but watch for more news soon." That may drive the perception of stores being many years "behind schedule." Until it's on the website in their opinion there isn't a schedule.

The Target that sat mostly built for 12 years was at Sunset and Western in Hollywood. That was taken down by numerous lawsuits over building height. It finally opened in late 2020. The lawsuits basically said the building should be torn down and rebuilt a few feet shorter which was completely ridiculous. The store is 150,000 Sq ft and I would guess based on the size and original expected opening around 2007-2008 it was planned to be a SuperTarget. I just can't imagine that they haven't had all sorts of problems with the building basically sitting open to the elements for over a decade.
Based on this article the store indeed was going to be a SuperTarget. This one store very likely would have been the most "urban" of these "Super" locations.

https://www.curbed.com/2020/10/target-l ... -open.html
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