Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

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Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by Brian Lutz »

https://www.fastcompany.com/90730929/st ... re-for-evs

Starbucks is preparing a pilot program of installing EV chargers in locations spaced roughly 100 miles apart along a 1,350 mile route between Seattle and Denver. The route seems to primarily follow I-82 and I-84 through Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Northern Utah, then follows I-15 south until it reaches I-70 heading to Denver, with Boise and Salt Lake City being the two major cities along the route. The bet seems to be that people would rather wait at a place like Starbucks for a 40-60 minute EV charge than somewhere like a gas station or a box store, which seems to be where most of the EV chargers I've seen around here are located. Then again, having just completed a drive from Salt Lake City back to the Seattle area, there's a lot of middle of nowhere on this route, so I can imagine finding any EV chargers along the way would be a challenge.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by storewanderer »

Brian Lutz wrote: March 17th, 2022, 8:25 pm https://www.fastcompany.com/90730929/st ... re-for-evs

Starbucks is preparing a pilot program of installing EV chargers in locations spaced roughly 100 miles apart along a 1,350 mile route between Seattle and Denver. The route seems to primarily follow I-82 and I-84 through Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Northern Utah, then follows I-15 south until it reaches I-70 heading to Denver, with Boise and Salt Lake City being the two major cities along the route. The bet seems to be that people would rather wait at a place like Starbucks for a 40-60 minute EV charge than somewhere like a gas station or a box store, which seems to be where most of the EV chargers I've seen around here are located. Then again, having just completed a drive from Salt Lake City back to the Seattle area, there's a lot of middle of nowhere on this route, so I can imagine finding any EV chargers along the way would be a challenge.
Someone in the middle of an 8-10 hour drive is not going to want to wait 40-60 minutes for an EV charge anywhere. Realistically you could say they stop for lunch and do it. The problem is when 3 other people stop for lunch at lunchtime and have the same idea, then there are no more chargers available. This is a problem and faster charging technology is needed along these, what should we call them, long stretches of road full of long haul/long trip drivers.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by Brian Lutz »

Seattle to Salt Lake is a 14-16 hour drive (about 12 hours of driving plus gas/food/restroom stops) in a regular car. Add regular EV charging stops to that and you're probably adding at least 2-3 hours on top of that. By the time you get to that point you're probably not going to be able to do the drive without an overnight stop, which would probably be in Boise.

Since I have family in the Spokane\Coeur d'Alene area we also sometimes do that trip via the I-90/I-15 route through Montana and Eastern Idaho. On that route even in a regular car there are some pretty long stretches without any gas stations, and even the ones that are there can be easy to miss. For example, if you're on eastbound I-90 you have to go several miles past the I-15 interchange to find gas stations in Butte, and if you miss those there's one bar in Melrose 35 miles down I-15 with one overpriced gas pump, but realistically your next chance at finding a reasonable gas station is in Dillon, 66 miles away. Beyond that the situation doesn't get much better until you reach Idaho Falls, which is 205 miles from Butte. It does look like there are Tesla Superchargers in Bozeman, Butte and Idaho Falls (and then Pocatello), but I'd be having some serious range anxiety on that stretch of I-15.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by Alpha8472 »

Starbucks is thinking that Tesla owners are rich and will stop at Starbucks to recharge and spend tons of money.

I have a co-worker who has 2 Teslas. She will spend tons of money at any restaurant or cafe. Money is of no concern to her.

In reality, these chargers will be totally occupied all the time if these chargers are the only ones near major freeways. Starbucks makes it seem like they are offering a service or helping the environment. The electric charger companies are paying Starbucks to host these chargers. Starbucks just wants the money and extra business brought in by Tesla and other electric vehicle owners.

There could be an estimated 26 million electric cars by 2030. They are going to have to build electric car chargers on practically every street corner opposite a gas station if they are going to take 40 minutes to charge up. People will be fighting for chargers all over the place.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by storewanderer »

Alpha8472 wrote: March 18th, 2022, 9:54 pm
There could be an estimated 26 million electric cars by 2030. They are going to have to build electric car chargers on practically every street corner opposite a gas station if they are going to take 40 minutes to charge up. People will be fighting for chargers all over the place.
I think the idea is in theory they could just re-purpose some gas stations into charging stations as well. Remove some gas pumps and install charging machines where those were. But the problem is the timing. If it takes 40-60 minutes to charge the vehicle, that is just too long. Either the technology is going to advance or this is going to only be useful for a very limited number of people.

Also they are going to need to build a lot of new power plants. The grids cannot even handle air conditioning in the summer in California, they will not be able to handle millions of vehicles trying to charge at once.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by Alpha8472 »

California definitely needs to invest in more power plants. They are going to have to encourage people to put solar panels on every new house. They need to build more power generating windmills.

Perhaps they should lessen environmental laws so more solar power plants can be built. There is plenty of wilderness where solar farms can be built.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by storewanderer »

Alpha8472 wrote: March 19th, 2022, 11:26 am California definitely needs to invest in more power plants. They are going to have to encourage people to put solar panels on every new house. They need to build more power generating windmills.

Perhaps they should lessen environmental laws so more solar power plants can be built. There is plenty of wilderness where solar farms can be built.
Yeah something happened with solar in Nevada. Basically it killed the industry. I suspect this happened in other states too. The energy company in NV, NV Energy, is owned by Berkshire Hathaway. Nevada has also been controlled by the same political party that controls the rest of the west coast for the past few years and they did not do anything to reverse this move which was made by the competing political party in 2016. Nevada legislature only has lawmaking/bill hearing sessions every 2 years so maybe they will try to address this in 2023.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... any-nevada

The more things change the more things stay the same. And I predict we will still be using gasoline vehicles in 20 years.

Maybe if we are lucky hybrids will become more available, easier for individuals to repair, and go down in price.

The problem here is we are dealing with politicians and this has become a red meat topic. It is an "all or nothing." No willingness to compromise. You have the "all electric anti oil" camp or you have the "pro oil" camp. Hybrids represent a compromise and none of the political groups pushing all of this are willing to even entertain discussion of something that may even remotely come off as a compromise.

I can't think of the last time a red meat topic that politicians took and ran with ended well, just keep using it for as many decades as possible to get people to vote for or against someone.

I have had many hybrids as rental cars over the years. I have driven them long distances across not very well traveled highways. Easily hit 50 MPG and no issues with them on long flat roads. Not great for mountain roads (lack power) but still do the job good enough for a one way trip (wouldn't be fun to drive a hybrid up a mountain road every day).

And when I hear a politician say if you don't like the gas prices go buy an EV, well, it isn't that easy. First off the function issues as described in this thread. But let's just assume I live in a place with ample charging and never expect to need to do a 16 hour drive in one day in my car (or am prepared to go rent a gas vehicle if I need to do that). EVs are not readily available, even if someone has the $55k in cash to go throw out for the cheapest EV right now, it isn't so easy to just go get one due to supply chain issues (and good luck getting one for $55k right now too). And I don't think most folks are in a position to just walk out and purchase a $55k EV on a whim.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by buckguy »

The economics of renewables has begun to make traditional power plants less of a given. Major appliances use less and less electricity---In the past 5 years, I've had to replace HVAC and hot water heater, as well as did a kitchen renovation with new appliances---at every step, my electric bills have gone down noticably despite accumulating more electric gadgets. My impression from neighbors is that electric cars are less expensive/intensive electric users than you would imagine. Electric car development is a global phenomenon and while it may take longer to supplant gasoline vehicles than some of its enthusiasts predict, it is more of a when than an "if".

My guess is that it only takes one disastrous trip for an electric car owner to figure out what they'll need to do for a long distance drive, just as it tends to take one bad trip for anyone to get more planful about long road trips. There are worse places to stop than a Starbucks (wifi, something to eat/drink, usually clean restrooms) and if they are minimally successful, it will open the door to other businesses doing this. A comfort stop, a snack, and some social media can kill time pretty quickly anyway and probably reduce fatigue, so all that is part of the tradeoff against waiting for a charge. Like deciding whether to leave a city before or after rush hour or whether to avoid toll roads, etc. there are lots of decisions one makes in planning a long trip and different trade-offs. People who never get up early will be up before dawn to beat traffic around Thanksgiving or Christmas if they figure it's worth the effort. Figuring out how to beat peak times at limited charging stops just becomes a special consideration for electric car owners and I'm guessing there already are apps that can help them figure out peak usage of these places.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by storewanderer »

buckguy wrote: March 20th, 2022, 5:49 am The economics of renewables has begun to make traditional power plants less of a given. Major appliances use less and less electricity---In the past 5 years, I've had to replace HVAC and hot water heater, as well as did a kitchen renovation with new appliances---at every step, my electric bills have gone down noticably despite accumulating more electric gadgets. My impression from neighbors is that electric cars are less expensive/intensive electric users than you would imagine. Electric car development is a global phenomenon and while it may take longer to supplant gasoline vehicles than some of its enthusiasts predict, it is more of a when than an "if".

My guess is that it only takes one disastrous trip for an electric car owner to figure out what they'll need to do for a long distance drive, just as it tends to take one bad trip for anyone to get more planful about long road trips. There are worse places to stop than a Starbucks (wifi, something to eat/drink, usually clean restrooms) and if they are minimally successful, it will open the door to other businesses doing this. A comfort stop, a snack, and some social media can kill time pretty quickly anyway and probably reduce fatigue, so all that is part of the tradeoff against waiting for a charge. Like deciding whether to leave a city before or after rush hour or whether to avoid toll roads, etc. there are lots of decisions one makes in planning a long trip and different trade-offs. People who never get up early will be up before dawn to beat traffic around Thanksgiving or Christmas if they figure it's worth the effort. Figuring out how to beat peak times at limited charging stops just becomes a special consideration for electric car owners and I'm guessing there already are apps that can help them figure out peak usage of these places.
And the "when" is going to be when they can figure out how to charge these vehicles in a manner that is just as easy for the consumer as a gas vehicle is to fill up with gas. Many folks hate filling up with gas. Imagine what they will think of a 40-60 minute EV charge.

The other thing you want to discuss is the disposal of batteries on those electronic vehicles. The how, the environmental impact, etc.

And I don't see folks on a road trip wanting to stop at Starbucks for 40-60 minutes, period. Starbucks are generally small, tables are small (few tables can even seat a family of 4), they do not have things like booster seats or anything to cater to kids...

A typical interstate gas station sees hundreds of vehicles come and go in an hour to fill up, in some cases, they are busy all day and all night. A Starbucks with 4 EV chargers that can each charge 1 car per hour, isn't even going to see 100 vehicles charge up in a day assuming those EVs are 100% used 24 hours per day (unlikely and Starbucks isn't open 24 hours either so people who go there at 11 PM for an EV charge will have nowhere to go).

Also coming off of COVID, how will EV charging work with future pandemics? No "dine in" anywhere (so you can't go sit in Starbucks for 40-60 minutes). Are the parking spaces for charging even 6 feet apart? I don't think they are. So would they have to close every other EV charging space for proper distancing? Implement a policy that you must remain in your car for 40-60 minutes with the windows up while charging the vehicle to stop the spread of the pandemic? Sounds pretty horrible. But I guess that is part of the plan to keep people from leaving their houses. Make life horrible. Ironically, gas stations where you pumped gas were one of the few places you could go during the entire COVID period that felt "normal." Nobody wore masks at gas pumps and it was the one and only spot that didn't have weird barriers, signs, tape on the ground, etc.
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Re: Starbucks plans EV charger pilot

Post by Super S »

Brian Lutz wrote: March 18th, 2022, 9:09 am Seattle to Salt Lake is a 14-16 hour drive (about 12 hours of driving plus gas/food/restroom stops) in a regular car. Add regular EV charging stops to that and you're probably adding at least 2-3 hours on top of that. By the time you get to that point you're probably not going to be able to do the drive without an overnight stop, which would probably be in Boise.

Since I have family in the Spokane\Coeur d'Alene area we also sometimes do that trip via the I-90/I-15 route through Montana and Eastern Idaho. On that route even in a regular car there are some pretty long stretches without any gas stations, and even the ones that are there can be easy to miss. For example, if you're on eastbound I-90 you have to go several miles past the I-15 interchange to find gas stations in Butte, and if you miss those there's one bar in Melrose 35 miles down I-15 with one overpriced gas pump, but realistically your next chance at finding a reasonable gas station is in Dillon, 66 miles away. Beyond that the situation doesn't get much better until you reach Idaho Falls, which is 205 miles from Butte. It does look like there are Tesla Superchargers in Bozeman, Butte and Idaho Falls (and then Pocatello), but I'd be having some serious range anxiety on that stretch of I-15.
I will also add that, along Interstate 84 between Portland and Boise, there are a few stretches with very few gas stations, and even less charging stations. It gets even worse as you head east of Boise and down toward Utah, not to mention various points in Idaho.

I think that the point where we might see a real shift is if one of the major oil companies such as Chevron or Shell makes an investment in a large number of locations to offer EV charging.
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