Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by HCal »

storewanderer wrote: June 9th, 2022, 11:44 pm The law gets thrown out when the grocers decide they don't want to deal with it anymore (once it is costing them more money than it is worth) and will use their lobby to get the law thrown out or re-worked. The tipping point is coming as the cost of the bags exceeds 10 cents and the retailers are spending more money on bags now than when they were giving the free thin bags.
I don't think the grocers have that much lobbying power here. California is a progressive state, and the legislature isn't going to backtrack on an environmental initiative just because companies complain, especially after it was approved in a referendum.
storewanderer wrote: June 9th, 2022, 11:44 pm Also your information is incorrect that the plastic bags are not recycled into new plastic bags. That must be another line the plastic police go spewing around. They make up a lot of lies to cause bag fees to be imposed and get thin plastic bags banned. This video shows the process. It is a process, yes. So is making paper bags (that process that uses one gallon of water PER bag)...
That looks like a promo video from Hilex Poly, not a scientific source of information.
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by storewanderer »

HCal wrote: June 10th, 2022, 6:37 pm

I don't think the grocers have that much lobbying power here. California is a progressive state, and the legislature isn't going to backtrack on an environmental initiative just because companies complain, especially after it was approved in a referendum.


That looks like a promo video from Hilex Poly, not a scientific source of information.
The video shows the process used to recycle the plastic bags. The process and equipment is real. The video shows there is a process and you can see it through. I am sorry it is not what you want to believe, nor is it what the liars who are speaking for plastic bag bans say to city councils and state legislative bodies say (they keep lying that the bags aren't recyclable), but it is the reality that there is a process and it is a fairly straightforward one to recycle the bags.

The grocers combined with the union absolutely have that much lobbying power. The grocers, specifically Safeway and the statewide lobbying group for the grocers, and UFCW are why the law was even passed in the first place in 2014 or whenever it was. You may not recall, but the law failed once during that legislative session because UFCW did not support it. Some kind of backroom deal was made with UFCW to get them to support it, the bill was heard a second time in that session whenever it was (2014 or whenever), and then passed.

The union has not been particularly happy with reusable bags during the COVID pandemic either. That was part of why many stores kept using thin bags months after they were supposed to use them back in 2020. Also part of why to this day many stores still refuse to handle customer reusable bags. They should probably put gloves on and handle the reusable bags. Oh wait, the gloves are made of a plastic like material too. I wonder how much plastic is in the gloves (that would be used once by the cashier to handle one customer's reusable bags)... see why this whole bag regulation is such a complete failure?

The outcome I see that will make everyone with power happy (except the consumer- they will be the loser- since they would still have to pay a bag fee) is a statewide bag tax. Period. No regulation on the type of bag as long as it is recyclable (via the in-store drop off). This would be similar to what is in place in Chicago and Washington, DC already. The thin bags are still dispensed, but there is a tax in place of 5 or 10 cents per bag. The tax is remitted to some government fund to "promote environmental efforts" and in the mean time the store is able to just provide bags that cost a few cents. The CA grocers since they currently get to keep the entire bag fee may have some negotiation power here and could say okay so what is being proposed is a 10 cent tax- we get 5 cents of it, the government gets 5 cents of it, and at that point the government has a new revenue stream, the grocers are being "paid" by the consumer for bags and the bag cost is more than covered, and those super thick bags disappear. Paper bags (that use a gallon of water each to make) would also likely be harder to find under that scenario since the 5 cent fee the store would receive would not be enough to pay for a paper bag.

Now with this bag regulation you have two regional CA chains who put language on their bags (or the bag manufacturer provided the language to go on the bags) that is completely in line with the state law's language, yet they are being sued for that language. That is not right. That ends up costing consumers additional money as the retailers have to mess around with a lawsuit. The consumer always pays. And this sort of thing is why businesses tend to fight against additional regulation. It isn't just the regulation itself that ends up costing more money, it is side effects like this lawsuit. If there was no bag regulation, this lawsuit and its costs would not exist. And you could say well they shouldn't dispense the super thick plastic bags, then there would be no lawsuit. But the state law explicitly allows the super thick plastic bags and the state law would have never come into place, without allowing the super thick plastic bags...

At least we can agree that the super thick plastic bags need to go...

I just don't see paper bags as the correct replacement. Between the excessive water use, the cutting down of trees, and the other side of the poor utility of the paper bags (great to carry dry goods, but fall apart when wet, and not great for space purposes, attract bugs, etc.) those aren't the answer either. And the sanitation concerns have largely killed reusable bags of the plastic flock lines variety and cloth bags are not sold much. The 90's environmentalists who pushed the plastic bags combined with the retailers figured out the best solution and it was the thin plastic bag.
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by veteran+ »

No matter the bag, the consumer should not be paying a single cent.

There has been scandal after scandal in different States that plastics are NOT being recycled as reported or claimed for several reasons.

If technology's best solution, currently, for the environment is the thin plastic bag, then so be it (no cost to the consumer).

It is hard to believe that science has not come up with a viable and sustainable alternative by now. Perhaps there is no "interest" $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: June 11th, 2022, 8:03 am No matter the bag, the consumer should not be paying a single cent.

There has been scandal after scandal in different States that plastics are NOT being recycled as reported or claimed for several reasons.

If technology's best solution, currently, for the environment is the thin plastic bag, then so be it (no cost to the consumer).

It is hard to believe that science has not come up with a viable and sustainable alternative by now. Perhaps there is no "interest" $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
They came up with the super thick plastic bag... that was their best solution... with the blessings of the politicians.

I am sure they could come up with a compostable bag that would be just like the thin bags. The compostable bags are illegal in CA as they do not meet certain biodegradable standards. One restaurant I go to uses them (orders them wholesale at about .05 each) but there is a disclaimer the bags are still thin plastic and only about 50% compostable. Why not 100%? At least they are trying. The bags don't work well for glass but work for just about anything else. Probably couldn't stack more than one layer of eight 15-16 ounce cans of food into one but that isn't really any different than most of the thin bags at this point. Basically a t-shirt version of the Trader Joe's produce bag.

They need to force the recycling. The politicians can regulate and force the bag recycling to take place if they want to. You have to start somewhere to try to fix recycling. Instead they push regulations that add on consumer bag fees and super thick plastic bags. This is a major failure.

Other option is to be bagless like New Jersey grocers (only grocers, not other retailers), Costco, Sam's Club, Natural Grocers, various restaurant supply stores... Going the bagless route the CPGs need to change how things are sold. No more single cups of yogurt, single cans of cat food, etc. that need bags. Multi packs do not necessarily need bags (then again they have boxes or are shrink wrapped in plastic so is there really any environmental benefit to that vs. loose items bagged?).

Some CPGs are doing this. At this point the "single string cheese" that used to show up in the store in a big box and go on display at .33 or whatever is gone from the major chains (Safeway, Kroger, Wal Mart) still present at some smaller chains. They were all loose in a box with a UPC code. You now only have the option to buy 10+ string cheese that look identical to the ones that used to be sold single, at a time and those are packed in a plastic bag. Back with the loose ones there was no plastic bag involved in the packaging.
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by mbz321 »

storewanderer wrote: June 11th, 2022, 9:47 am

need to force the recycling. The politicians can regulate and force the bag recycling to take place if they want to. You have to start somewhere to try to fix recycling. Instead they push regulations that add on consumer bag fees and super thick plastic bags. This is a major failure.
Recycling any kind of plastic is not a cost-effective process, nor is it really environmentally friendly either. Only 7% or so of all plastics ever created have been recycled. We need to move away from plastic (agree with you about the thicker plastic bags..it really isn't a better solution. I live outside of Philadelphia, a city which now has a bag ban, and I see plenty of reusable thick bags from Walmart and other grocers, and those woven ones from Target just tossed in the trash. I'm not sure if retailers are charging customers for these, but either way, it is not much better).


Other option is to be bagless like New Jersey grocers (only grocers, not other retailers), Costco, Sam's Club, Natural Grocers, various restaurant supply stores... Going the bagless route the CPGs need to change how things are sold. No more single cups of yogurt, single cans of cat food, etc. that need bags. Multi packs do not necessarily need bags (then again they have boxes or are shrink wrapped in plastic so is there really any environmental benefit to that vs. loose items bagged?).
Honestly this would be the best solution. A win for the stores who don't have to provide 'free' bags, and a win for the environment. It's 2022...surely people can come up with their own creative ways of getting their purchases home (and if not, retailers can still offer actual reusable bags for purchase). Not sure I understand why that would fundamentally change the selling of small items though :?
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by storewanderer »

mbz321 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 8:31 pm

Recycling any kind of plastic is not a cost-effective process, nor is it really environmentally friendly either. Only 7% or so of all plastics ever created have been recycled. We need to move away from plastic (agree with you about the thicker plastic bags..it really isn't a better solution. I live outside of Philadelphia, a city which now has a bag ban, and I see plenty of reusable thick bags from Walmart and other grocers, and those woven ones from Target just tossed in the trash. I'm not sure if retailers are charging customers for these, but either way, it is not much better).



Honestly this would be the best solution. A win for the stores who don't have to provide 'free' bags, and a win for the environment. It's 2022...surely people can come up with their own creative ways of getting their purchases home (and if not, retailers can still offer actual reusable bags for purchase). Not sure I understand why that would fundamentally change the selling of small items though :?
Some retailers are charging a bag fee in Philadelphia and others are not. But the fee does not seem to matter. Also those super thick bags are not even supposed to be allowed in Philadelphia. The Philadelphia rule explicitly requires a woven handle and a certain manufacturing process, it was written up explicitly to prohibit the super thick t-shirt style bags. The fact that retailers are still using those bags which are deemed "reusable" when they are not supposed to be, is interesting. They may as well just use the thin bags, if they aren't going to follow the rules anyway. Also the Philadelphia rule applies to all retailers and all restaurants. In CA, the rule only applies to in a nutshell- retail stores that hold a liquor license. It does not apply to restaurants, any mall stores, department store, home improvement stores, pet stores (though Petco still dispenses super thick bags for 10 cents), etc.

They need to fix the recycling. Force the recycling to work. I am confident it can work if it is forced to. Higher oil prices will actually help recycling as the cost for new materials rises and suddenly the recycling may become more viable.

Being bagless makes small items a bigger hassle than they already are. Think of buying 24 loose cans of pet food vs. buying a bundle pack where they are all bundled together. In a bagless environment it is much easier to handle the bundle pack, than the 24 loose cans. Same example for yogurt, various canned foods, etc. But the problem is many of the bundles are bundled together by... plastic. At this point banning thin bags feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. The plastic waste produced by thin bags is a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the total plastic waste. Adding in super thick plastic bags to replace the thin ones is like putting extra weight to make it sink faster.
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by mbz321 »

storewanderer wrote: June 12th, 2022, 8:57 pm

Being bagless makes small items a bigger hassle than they already are. Think of buying 24 loose cans of pet food vs. buying a bundle pack where they are all bundled together. In a bagless environment it is much easier to handle the bundle pack, than the 24 loose cans. Same example for yogurt, various canned foods, etc. But the problem is many of the bundles are bundled together by... plastic. At this point banning thin bags feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. The plastic waste produced by thin bags is a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the total plastic waste. Adding in super thick plastic bags to replace the thin ones is like putting extra weight to make it sink faster.
Give customers empty boxes to use, or they can bring in their own boxes, bags, laundry baskets, milk crates, whatever, or the option to buy an actual reusable bag. This 'issue' is literally a non-issue.
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by storewanderer »

mbz321 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 9:04 pm
storewanderer wrote: June 12th, 2022, 8:57 pm

Being bagless makes small items a bigger hassle than they already are. Think of buying 24 loose cans of pet food vs. buying a bundle pack where they are all bundled together. In a bagless environment it is much easier to handle the bundle pack, than the 24 loose cans. Same example for yogurt, various canned foods, etc. But the problem is many of the bundles are bundled together by... plastic. At this point banning thin bags feels like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. The plastic waste produced by thin bags is a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the total plastic waste. Adding in super thick plastic bags to replace the thin ones is like putting extra weight to make it sink faster.
Give customers empty boxes to use, or they can bring in their own boxes, bags, laundry baskets, milk crates, whatever, or the option to buy an actual reusable bag. This 'issue' is literally a non-issue.
Or you stop selling the loose units entirely and switch to only multi-packs... but again the multi packs are usually wrapped in additional plastic to bundle them... the bagging process is only one of the hassles of selling the loose small value units... stocking, ordering, facing, scanning them each (properly to help the computerized ordering)...

I suppose they could do something to regulate the cardboard boxes to somehow penalize stores for compacting them and instead force the stores to give them to customers to carry purchases out in (a practice already used by the warehouse clubs, Natural Grocers, and various restaurant supply stores). But that is more regulation. I am sure it would lead to more problems. Just like nobody expected to see two CA grocers get sued for dispensing super thick plastic bags with language on the bags that comes straight out of the language of the bag regulation the state legislature passed and voters voted to keep...
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by jamcool »

storewanderer wrote: June 10th, 2022, 10:39 pm
HCal wrote: June 10th, 2022, 6:37 pm

I don't think the grocers have that much lobbying power here. California is a progressive state, and the legislature isn't going to backtrack on an environmental initiative just because companies complain, especially after it was approved in a referendum.


That looks like a promo video from Hilex Poly, not a scientific source of information.
The video shows the process used to recycle the plastic bags. The process and equipment is real. The video shows there is a process and you can see it through. I am sorry it is not what you want to believe, nor is it what the liars who are speaking for plastic bag bans say to city councils and state legislative bodies say (they keep lying that the bags aren't recyclable), but it is the reality that there is a process and it is a fairly straightforward one to recycle the bags.

The grocers combined with the union absolutely have that much lobbying power. The grocers, specifically Safeway and the statewide lobbying group for the grocers, and UFCW are why the law was even passed in the first place in 2014 or whenever it was. You may not recall, but the law failed once during that legislative session because UFCW did not support it. Some kind of backroom deal was made with UFCW to get them to support it, the bill was heard a second time in that session whenever it was (2014 or whenever), and then passed.

The union has not been particularly happy with reusable bags during the COVID pandemic either. That was part of why many stores kept using thin bags months after they were supposed to use them back in 2020. Also part of why to this day many stores still refuse to handle customer reusable bags. They should probably put gloves on and handle the reusable bags. Oh wait, the gloves are made of a plastic like material too. I wonder how much plastic is in the gloves (that would be used once by the cashier to handle one customer's reusable bags)... see why this whole bag regulation is such a complete failure?

The outcome I see that will make everyone with power happy (except the consumer- they will be the loser- since they would still have to pay a bag fee) is a statewide bag tax. Period. No regulation on the type of bag as long as it is recyclable (via the in-store drop off). This would be similar to what is in place in Chicago and Washington, DC already. The thin bags are still dispensed, but there is a tax in place of 5 or 10 cents per bag. The tax is remitted to some government fund to "promote environmental efforts" and in the mean time the store is able to just provide bags that cost a few cents. The CA grocers since they currently get to keep the entire bag fee may have some negotiation power here and could say okay so what is being proposed is a 10 cent tax- we get 5 cents of it, the government gets 5 cents of it, and at that point the government has a new revenue stream, the grocers are being "paid" by the consumer for bags and the bag cost is more than covered, and those super thick bags disappear. Paper bags (that use a gallon of water each to make) would also likely be harder to find under that scenario since the 5 cent fee the store would receive would not be enough to pay for a paper bag.

Now with this bag regulation you have two regional CA chains who put language on their bags (or the bag manufacturer provided the language to go on the bags) that is completely in line with the state law's language, yet they are being sued for that language. That is not right. That ends up costing consumers additional money as the retailers have to mess around with a lawsuit. The consumer always pays. And this sort of thing is why businesses tend to fight against additional regulation. It isn't just the regulation itself that ends up costing more money, it is side effects like this lawsuit. If there was no bag regulation, this lawsuit and its costs would not exist. And you could say well they shouldn't dispense the super thick plastic bags, then there would be no lawsuit. But the state law explicitly allows the super thick plastic bags and the state law would have never come into place, without allowing the super thick plastic bags...

At least we can agree that the super thick plastic bags need to go...

I just don't see paper bags as the correct replacement. Between the excessive water use, the cutting down of trees, and the other side of the poor utility of the paper bags (great to carry dry goods, but fall apart when wet, and not great for space purposes, attract bugs, etc.) those aren't the answer either. And the sanitation concerns have largely killed reusable bags of the plastic flock lines variety and cloth bags are not sold much. The 90's environmentalists who pushed the plastic bags combined with the retailers figured out the best solution and it was the thin plastic bag.
You realize that the trees used to make paper bags are a crop, like corn and wheat. And how hard is it to fold up a paper bag to store it?
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Re: Gelson's, Stater Bros Sued Over Thick Plastic Bags

Post by storewanderer »

jamcool wrote: June 13th, 2022, 12:40 am
You realize that the trees used to make paper bags are a crop, like corn and wheat. And how hard is it to fold up a paper bag to store it?
Not very hard, but there are other problems that prevent the paper bag from being the default used bag in the future.

There were a variety of reasons why paper bags were de-emphasized by the environmental groups of the 90's. "Save the trees" was the big one. They also cost more and were less efficient to work with than the thin plastic bags. Despite this various chains never offered plastic bags and have always offered paper bags over the years. And that is the business decision certain chains made. On their own.

Today there are other challenges. First off, the paper bag industry cannot meet paper bag demand thanks to all of these plastic bag regulations in the US. The result has been the super thick plastic bags, and the cost of paper bags spiking significantly in the past few years.

The other problem I am seeing currently with paper bags is due to the US unable to meet paper bag demand, supposed funding for more paper bag manufacturing in WA in conjunction with that state's plastic bag ban which seems to have yet to produce any additional paper bag manufacturing capacity or even have any in development, more paper bags are being imported. Those paper bags are being imported from China, Vietnam, among other places. The paper bags imported from China are terrible for a grocery store (these are the ones with the handles folded inside the bag instead of outside- Amazon Fresh uses them in the Go Carts and I've seen Raleys use them when they run out of their usual paper bags, but other than that they are only used in fast food from what I see) and do not hold up well, also they seem to be quite flammable.

The other problem is when you have a water shortage where certain properties are being told they can no longer even water their landscaping in parts of California, you should not be encouraging use of a product like paper bags that uses a whole gallon of water per bag just to produce the bag at the production level (not to mention whatever additional water would be needed to irrigate tree farms to make paper bags if you want to seriously expand paper bag production).
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