Cracker Barrel closes Portland Jantzen Beach location

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Re: Cracker Barrel closes Portland Jantzen Beach location

Post by buckguy »

BillyGr wrote: April 27th, 2023, 8:30 am
storewanderer wrote: April 26th, 2023, 9:51 pm When I was very young and heard about that pay model I asked someone why anyone would go work in a restaurant waiting tables. I never did get an answer.

Nevada thrives on tips yet even here that wage model got canceled a number of years ago.
Pretty simple reason - many people working those jobs can make more money than they would at most jobs they would otherwise have.
If not waiting tables, they would likely be working somewhere that pays closer to the minimum wage (a store or similar), and even a halfway decent waitperson in a moderate priced place will make more than that.

For instance, our local diner (where you might spend $20/person now for a dinner). Two people at the table, totals $40, so an $8 tip at 20%.
Server is handling several tables at a time, so over an hour they could be getting $32 in tips (that $8 x 4 tables of 2, possibly a bit less from some if they get just sandwiches or similar, but this is dinner time, possibly more if they get more than just a meal and a soda/similar drink or have more than 2 at one of the tables).

That is over 2x the minimum wage for NY (which is still just under $15 outside the NYC area), and also not counting the actual pay they get, even if it is fairly low (not sure exactly what that is these days, I think that was raised somewhat as well from the old $2.xx per hour level).

Stores may not pay exactly minimum either, but likely still under $20/hour (these aren't CA unionized grocery chains or similar).

If that server worked for another restaurant (even, say, a chain like Red Lobster, in an area 15ish miles away nearer to the bigger populations surrounding Albany), where meals under $20 barely exist any longer, they would get even more in tips for the same number of customers, thus even better for them.
You assume everyone tips the same way and that they are generous. Talk to people who've worked these jobs. It's not so good for them and you're assuming tipped wage vs. minimum wage, whereas the employment market could lead to higher wages than minimum. I lived through this debate in DC several years ago---when anyone does some reserach on this, they find that the tipped wage tends to be most generous at high end, high volume places. There aren't that many of them. Other than bartenders in popular bars that do a big trade in mixed drinks, the people who make a decent long-term living in restaurants work in higher end establishments. There might be well-loved local institutions where people are generous, but those probably are an exception, too.

Other problems---wage theft is very common in the restaurant business. Large chains and well-known local resturants have had to agree to huge settlements, because of this practice and the theft is based in the tips. Again, ask anyone who has worked in the business. If you're in NYC, DC, LA, LV, much of Florida, basically any place that attracts a lot of foreign tourists, tipping can be erratic at best. In most foreign countries, tipping is unknown or the custom may be to "round up" which effectively tends to be about 5% or so on average--I've lived one of these places. People without a frame of reference for US tipping customs will find the suggested tipping rates to be absurd and often won't tip, at all.
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Re: Cracker Barrel closes Portland Jantzen Beach location

Post by storewanderer »

It is actually surprising how many people do not tip at all or do tips like $1 per person dining or similar.

I base my tip amount on if I am in a state where the server is paid basically no wage+tips or a state where the server is paid going rate wages (which means well above minimum in most places now) + tips. This all goes out the window if the service is especially good or bad at which point it could go as high as 30% (especially if I am dining alone) and as low as 0%.

Many chain restaurants do a tip pool set up so the tip does not all go to the server. I also prefer to leave a cash tip to the server instead of a credit card tip when paying by credit card. This way there is less risk of a tip entry error on the credit card transaction.

Independent restaurants with a stable client base and higher cost items and where the servers get to keep 100% of their tips often have servers and bartenders who have worked there for decades due to the great tips and everyone loves the stability of seeing the same employees over the years. As far as chains go, it is sort of a joke. People trying to work tip wages at Denny's or low dollar places do not do very well. Places like Texas Roadhouse they can do very well even though it only operates 5 hours per day since they are jam packed. Upper end places like a Morton's or whatever it really depends how busy the location actually is.
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Re: Cracker Barrel closes Portland Jantzen Beach location

Post by buckguy »

storewanderer wrote: April 27th, 2023, 11:46 pm It is actually surprising how many people do not tip at all or do tips like $1 per person dining or similar.

I base my tip amount on if I am in a state where the server is paid basically no wage+tips or a state where the server is paid going rate wages (which means well above minimum in most places now) + tips. This all goes out the window if the service is especially good or bad at which point it could go as high as 30% (especially if I am dining alone) and as low as 0%.

Many chain restaurants do a tip pool set up so the tip does not all go to the server. I also prefer to leave a cash tip to the server instead of a credit card tip when paying by credit card. This way there is less risk of a tip entry error on the credit card transaction.

Independent restaurants with a stable client base and higher cost items and where the servers get to keep 100% of their tips often have servers and bartenders who have worked there for decades due to the great tips and everyone loves the stability of seeing the same employees over the years. As far as chains go, it is sort of a joke. People trying to work tip wages at Denny's or low dollar places do not do very well. Places like Texas Roadhouse they can do very well even though it only operates 5 hours per day since they are jam packed. Upper end places like a Morton's or whatever it really depends how busy the location actually is.
Good point about teh pooling of tips and it not just chains that do it. You never know how the money is going to be dividied.
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Re: Cracker Barrel closes Portland Jantzen Beach location

Post by veteran+ »

buckguy wrote: April 27th, 2023, 7:14 pm
BillyGr wrote: April 27th, 2023, 8:30 am
storewanderer wrote: April 26th, 2023, 9:51 pm When I was very young and heard about that pay model I asked someone why anyone would go work in a restaurant waiting tables. I never did get an answer.

Nevada thrives on tips yet even here that wage model got canceled a number of years ago.
Pretty simple reason - many people working those jobs can make more money than they would at most jobs they would otherwise have.
If not waiting tables, they would likely be working somewhere that pays closer to the minimum wage (a store or similar), and even a halfway decent waitperson in a moderate priced place will make more than that.

For instance, our local diner (where you might spend $20/person now for a dinner). Two people at the table, totals $40, so an $8 tip at 20%.
Server is handling several tables at a time, so over an hour they could be getting $32 in tips (that $8 x 4 tables of 2, possibly a bit less from some if they get just sandwiches or similar, but this is dinner time, possibly more if they get more than just a meal and a soda/similar drink or have more than 2 at one of the tables).

That is over 2x the minimum wage for NY (which is still just under $15 outside the NYC area), and also not counting the actual pay they get, even if it is fairly low (not sure exactly what that is these days, I think that was raised somewhat as well from the old $2.xx per hour level).

Stores may not pay exactly minimum either, but likely still under $20/hour (these aren't CA unionized grocery chains or similar).

If that server worked for another restaurant (even, say, a chain like Red Lobster, in an area 15ish miles away nearer to the bigger populations surrounding Albany), where meals under $20 barely exist any longer, they would get even more in tips for the same number of customers, thus even better for them.
You assume everyone tips the same way and that they are generous. Talk to people who've worked these jobs. It's not so good for them and you're assuming tipped wage vs. minimum wage, whereas the employment market could lead to higher wages than minimum. I lived through this debate in DC several years ago---when anyone does some reserach on this, they find that the tipped wage tends to be most generous at high end, high volume places. There aren't that many of them. Other than bartenders in popular bars that do a big trade in mixed drinks, the people who make a decent long-term living in restaurants work in higher end establishments. There might be well-loved local institutions where people are generous, but those probably are an exception, too.

Other problems---wage theft is very common in the restaurant business. Large chains and well-known local resturants have had to agree to huge settlements, because of this practice and the theft is based in the tips. Again, ask anyone who has worked in the business. If you're in NYC, DC, LA, LV, much of Florida, basically any place that attracts a lot of foreign tourists, tipping can be erratic at best. In most foreign countries, tipping is unknown or the custom may be to "round up" which effectively tends to be about 5% or so on average--I've lived one of these places. People without a frame of reference for US tipping customs will find the suggested tipping rates to be absurd and often won't tip, at all.
Excellent almost "forensic" deep dive, and I concur. My ex wife's family owned a well known (almost cult following) Italian restaurant in S. Florida and my recent ex was in this business for decades in 3 States.
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Re: Cracker Barrel closes Portland Jantzen Beach location

Post by BillyGr »

buckguy wrote: April 27th, 2023, 7:14 pm
BillyGr wrote: April 27th, 2023, 8:30 am Pretty simple reason - many people working those jobs can make more money than they would at most jobs they would otherwise have.
If not waiting tables, they would likely be working somewhere that pays closer to the minimum wage (a store or similar), and even a halfway decent waitperson in a moderate priced place will make more than that.

For instance, our local diner (where you might spend $20/person now for a dinner). Two people at the table, totals $40, so an $8 tip at 20%.
Server is handling several tables at a time, so over an hour they could be getting $32 in tips (that $8 x 4 tables of 2, possibly a bit less from some if they get just sandwiches or similar, but this is dinner time, possibly more if they get more than just a meal and a soda/similar drink or have more than 2 at one of the tables).

That is over 2x the minimum wage for NY (which is still just under $15 outside the NYC area), and also not counting the actual pay they get, even if it is fairly low (not sure exactly what that is these days, I think that was raised somewhat as well from the old $2.xx per hour level).

Stores may not pay exactly minimum either, but likely still under $20/hour (these aren't CA unionized grocery chains or similar).

If that server worked for another restaurant (even, say, a chain like Red Lobster, in an area 15ish miles away nearer to the bigger populations surrounding Albany), where meals under $20 barely exist any longer, they would get even more in tips for the same number of customers, thus even better for them.
You assume everyone tips the same way and that they are generous. Talk to people who've worked these jobs. It's not so good for them and you're assuming tipped wage vs. minimum wage, whereas the employment market could lead to higher wages than minimum. I lived through this debate in DC several years ago---when anyone does some reserach on this, they find that the tipped wage tends to be most generous at high end, high volume places. There aren't that many of them. Other than bartenders in popular bars that do a big trade in mixed drinks, the people who make a decent long-term living in restaurants work in higher end establishments. There might be well-loved local institutions where people are generous, but those probably are an exception, too.

Other problems---wage theft is very common in the restaurant business. Large chains and well-known local resturants have had to agree to huge settlements, because of this practice and the theft is based in the tips. Again, ask anyone who has worked in the business. If you're in NYC, DC, LA, LV, much of Florida, basically any place that attracts a lot of foreign tourists, tipping can be erratic at best. In most foreign countries, tipping is unknown or the custom may be to "round up" which effectively tends to be about 5% or so on average--I've lived one of these places. People without a frame of reference for US tipping customs will find the suggested tipping rates to be absurd and often won't tip, at all.
I didn't assume anything! 20% is the standard these days (unless there are issues with said service, then that is the employee's fault for not doing their job properly), and I stated that the stores may pay more than minimum as well. If people are actually tipping $1 as others post, then the restaurant ownership should be fixing that - either not serving said people again, or going to some type of higher pay with tips not required.

If they are not receiving the proper amount from the restaurant, that is again THEIR problem for not fixing that issue (via legal methods if they can't do so on their own). That proper amount could be their own tips, or some form of shared tipping, whatever they have agreed to when taking the job.

Also, if there is an issue in a particular area (like you mention), then places in those areas should post something so that anyone entering is informed of how the US system works, or they could do (as some places have done) and eliminate the tips and pay accordingly (and price the menu to reflect that). If they fail to do so, then employees either live with what they (don't) get or refuse to work for these places until the situation is fixed to their liking.
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