Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by babs »

storewanderer wrote: March 12th, 2023, 8:50 pm
babs wrote: March 12th, 2023, 7:02 pm
storewanderer wrote: March 10th, 2023, 11:40 pm
Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
Not entirely correct since I have a bit of knowledge about this. Back in the mid-90s, the Salt Lake market was one of the few without any Target stores. Target had just opened a few Super Targets and decided to go into Utah with nothing but Super Targets. The plan was to have nothing but Super Targets in that market to see if they dominate with this format since at that time Super Target was seen as the future. Fred Meyer had zero to do with their thinking. It was never mentioned and they didn't really worry about Fred Meyer at all.

I remember those first stores had a Baskin-Robbins and a photo studio inside. Odd but cute, figured it was a way to appeal to families. The problem back then and still is today. The grocery stores are incredibly sterile. People go to Target first for everything else and grocery is nothing more than a convenience pick-up. Until they make grocery front and center, it will fail. But inside Target, grocery has always been a sidelines business. If the day comes that a grocery person runs Target, it will not change. The Apparel and home folks run the business.
This is interesting. I am surprised they did not consider Fred Meyer at the start of the format in Utah. In that case you have to wonder if the not quite off the charts results in Utah caused them to not expand Super Target further in Fred Meyer's territory. Those Super Targets were in Utah before they were in Denver too as I recall. I think the first Denver Super Target was around 2001 or 2002 in Superior (I think that store had a fire somewhat recently, not sure if it reopened). Many more followed.

Target built in the mid 90's in Carson City with a portrait studio (far front corner of the store adjacent to electronics) and also in the later 90's the Reno Greatland unit with a portrait studio (just inside the electronics/customer service side entry, positioned sort of like a bank would have been). These departments are long gone now.

Also what was the timing of the opening of the Super Targets compared to the timing of Fred Meyer adding food into additional Utah Stores (I thought sometime around when they bought Smiths was when they had added groceries into all but a couple of the Utah Fred Meyer units).
It was at this same time, mid-90s, when Fred Meyer added food to the buildings that could be expanded and closed the rest. I think it was only 3 or 4 stores in Utah that ended up closing. This was all done before the Smith's purchase. The stores without food, just didn't perform. Adding food seemed to shore those stores up.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by storewanderer »

babs wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:43 pm

It was at this same time, mid-90s, when Fred Meyer added food to the buildings that could be expanded and closed the rest. I think it was only 3 or 4 stores in Utah that ended up closing. This was all done before the Smith's purchase. The stores without food, just didn't perform. Adding food seemed to shore those stores up.
They kept one of those non-food stores going until the Smiths Marketplace program. I think it was in Sandy. Really run down facility there. I'm not sure what the story on it was but it closed during the period the other locations there were converting to Smiths Marketplace.

The store on Valley Street is a previous general merchandise only stores still open as Smiths Marketplace that had the rather haphazardly added food department. I think Logan was too but not 100% sure on that. Not sure what is going on with Logan but it looks like Smiths finally remodeled the grocery side out of 1995 Fred Meyer decor last year, but the Fred Meyer side of the store doesn't appear to have participated in the remodel. I guess these are really still combo stores with the shared P&L between the two divisions. The other former Fred Meyer stores still open as Smiths Marketplace (plus the Lehi new build) are all full size Fred Meyer units.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by Super S »

Those non-food stores in Utah were likely Grand Central stores in the beginning. Fred Meyer acquired and renamed these stores in the 1980s. There were some locations in Idaho as well...this is actually how Fred Meyer entered the Boise Market. There were two former Grand Central locations in Boise which were operating as Fred Meyer for about a year or two before Fred Meyer built two new full-line locations, one in Boise (Garden City) and one in Nampa.

The two former Grand Central locations coexisted with the full-line Fred Meyer stores for a few years....the one on Fairview actually received a remodel shortly after Garden City opened, but eventually closed (replaced by the Five Mile & Fairview store?) and became a Burlington store (this location is next to an Albertsons) and the other location on Overland in the Hillcrest center closed and was demolished (replaced by the Franklin Road store) Hillcrest originally had a Buttrey in the same center, later an Albertsons, which ironically moved from an old store on the site of the Franklin Road Fred Meyer. In both cases it wasn't feasible for Fred Meyer to expand those locations.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by veteran+ »

storewanderer wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:07 pm
pseudo3d wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:00 pm

From what I remember reading, Hypermart USA was larger, but had some weird quirks in SKUs (no paint mixing, only white paint), while a parallel Wal-Mart Supercenter prototype was developed elsewhere. Kmart launched with American Fare first I believe, which was different than Kmart (more upscale clothing lines) but some articles mention "Super Kmart" tests that utilized defunct Kmart Foods spaces in the late 1980s (these did not graduate to real Super Kmart stores).

I know Kmart never took distribution in-house which was what Wal-Mart did fairly early; instead they relied between SuperValu and Fleming, before signing an exclusivity deal with Fleming in the early 2000s. I'm not sure if Fleming took Kmart down or vice versa, but there were some articles about Fleming threw their independent customers under the bus around this time.
Fleming suspended deliveries to Kmart and Kmart filed bankruptcy not long after. Then not long after that Fleming filed bankruptcy. Kmart had a pretty nasty contract with Fleming. There were a lot of volume requirements that needed to be met. Kmart could not buy consumable goods outside Fleming. There was a clause in the contract that would also expand the Fleming agreement to include drug/HBA that never happened. Also the gas stations had to have their gas supplied by some weird division that Fleming had set up probably entirely to supply gas to Kmart (Fleming did have convenience store wholesale too so maybe the fuel division was part of that, who knows).

The problem with Fleming and independents was sometimes Fleming guaranteed the leases of the independent stores they supplied. When Fleming went bankrupt then went out of business, those guarantees became meaningless. Independents who could leave Fleming left during the uncertainty. C&S picked up the pieces well out in NorCal but one of the biggest reasons more in NorCal didn't bolt was because they were stuck due to being F4L franchisees.
When ever Fleming was involved there's gonna be some trouble or disaster!
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by BatteryMill »

babs wrote: March 12th, 2023, 7:02 pm
storewanderer wrote: March 10th, 2023, 11:40 pm
Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
Not entirely correct since I have a bit of knowledge about this. Back in the mid-90s, the Salt Lake market was one of the few without any Target stores. Target had just opened a few Super Targets and decided to go into Utah with nothing but Super Targets. The plan was to have nothing but Super Targets in that market to see if they dominate with this format since at that time Super Target was seen as the future. Fred Meyer had zero to do with their thinking. It was never mentioned and they didn't really worry about Fred Meyer at all.

I remember those first stores had a Baskin-Robbins and a photo studio inside. Odd but cute, figured it was a way to appeal to families. The problem back then and still is today. The grocery stores are incredibly sterile. People go to Target first for everything else and grocery is nothing more than a convenience pick-up. Until they make grocery front and center, it will fail. But inside Target, grocery has always been a sidelines business. If the day comes that a grocery person runs Target, it will not change. The Apparel and home folks run the business.
I never had any idea Baskin-Robbins set up shop inside Target, all I've known are the likes of Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, and Jamba Juice prior to Cornell. Target has tried in the past to make the grocery section stand out.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by mbz321 »

I've seen reports today of two City Targets/Target Express/just 'Target' stores are on the chopping block

Center City, Philadelphia
Uptown Minneapolis
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by ClownLoach »

mbz321 wrote: March 13th, 2023, 4:35 pm I've seen reports today of two City Targets/Target Express/just 'Target' stores are on the chopping block

Center City, Philadelphia
Uptown Minneapolis
Apparently they can't make it work in their own backyard. They need to end this ill-fated small format experiment.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by babs »

ClownLoach wrote: March 13th, 2023, 8:00 pm
mbz321 wrote: March 13th, 2023, 4:35 pm I've seen reports today of two City Targets/Target Express/just 'Target' stores are on the chopping block

Center City, Philadelphia
Uptown Minneapolis
Apparently they can't make it work in their own backyard. They need to end this ill-fated small format experiment.
It seems to work in NYC...when the stores are stocked.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by storewanderer »

babs wrote: March 13th, 2023, 10:36 pm
ClownLoach wrote: March 13th, 2023, 8:00 pm
mbz321 wrote: March 13th, 2023, 4:35 pm I've seen reports today of two City Targets/Target Express/just 'Target' stores are on the chopping block

Center City, Philadelphia
Uptown Minneapolis
Apparently they can't make it work in their own backyard. They need to end this ill-fated small format experiment.
It seems to work in NYC...when the stores are stocked.
This store was in "uptown" which is what it says it is, sort of a mesh between a downtown and a not downtown.

With that said the Target was rather poorly positioned. It was difficult to see/find. Traffic at this store was very low. The way the store was positioned the area did not have particularly high foot traffic either. Parking entry was confusing and easy to flat out miss.

There is a busy small L&B a couple blocks away with a nice big surface parking lot, really that is the site Target needed.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by retailfanmitchell019 »

storewanderer wrote: March 13th, 2023, 11:02 pm
This store was in "uptown" which is what it says it is, sort of a mesh between a downtown and a not downtown.

There is a busy small L&B a couple blocks away with a nice big surface parking lot, really that is the site Target needed.
Uptown is the "hipster" neighborhood of Minneapolis, known for its nightclubs, boutiques and music scene. This was where teenagers would hang out in Minneapolis in the 70s and 80s, when my father was in his teen years. He would take the bus to Uptown from Edina, an affluent suburb nearby. Back then, Uptown was known to be a sketchy place- I can imagine it is much nicer now than it was back then. Minneapolis is still one of the most expensive places to live in the Midwest, next to Chicago and Ann Arbor.
Minneapolis is easy to get around in compared to LA or NYC- you can go from Downtown Minneapolis to a backwoods small town in 30 minutes.
Nearby that Uptown Target is a Cub- the exterior kind of looks like an old Buttrey, although I'm 99% sure Buttrey never operated this far east (they did have a store in Moorhead, across the river from Fargo, ND). That store was originally a Del Farm (National discount banner), then National, then Applebaum's (Twin Cities regional chain), then Rainbow, and now Cub.
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