Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Predicting the demise of Sears & Kmart since 2017!
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by jamcool »

Walmart and Winco did in the ST in Indio-both had stores in close distance
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by pseudo3d »

arizonaguy wrote: March 11th, 2023, 1:33 pm
This is the one thing Target has done right. Target really hasn't lost focus on general merchandise like Kroger / Walmart have. At this point Kroger / Walmart are grocers who sell general merchandise. Target is a general merchandise discount store that sells groceries. Targets online offerings are geared more towards general merchandise than the grocery focused efforts at Kroger / Walmart and I really don't think Target is losing as many potential sales to Amazon as Kroger and Walmart are.
Target's general merchandise all got slashed for the grocery departments since unlike Wal-Mart they never did any physical expansions for P-Fresh (and I don't think any SuperTargets were expanded regular Target stores, though I could be wrong), and the general merchandise selection for Target I've generally found pretty lousy to the point where it wasn't worth shopping there anymore.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by Romr123 »

Agreed...it's exceptional if there's a Target that has a good grocery section--there's a good one in Warren, MI (blue collar Detroit suburb) with a Kroger in the strip parking lot, a BJs one mile away and a Meijer about 1 1/2 mile away. They have some people in food in that store who care. Other Targets in the area are pretty miserable.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by mbz321 »

pseudo3d wrote: March 12th, 2023, 10:44 am
Target's general merchandise all got slashed for the grocery departments since unlike Wal-Mart they never did any physical expansions for P-Fresh (and I don't think any SuperTargets were expanded regular Target stores, though I could be wrong), and the general merchandise selection for Target I've generally found pretty lousy to the point where it wasn't worth shopping there anymore.

This. To me, I rarely shop at Target as I know they won't have everything I need in one trip because the selection of everything is so curated. It never made sense to me why they would replace high margin hard/softlines with low margin groceries, a selection that seems just a bit too large, but not quite enough to make it a complete grocery store replacement.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by babs »

storewanderer wrote: March 10th, 2023, 11:40 pm
Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
Not entirely correct since I have a bit of knowledge about this. Back in the mid-90s, the Salt Lake market was one of the few without any Target stores. Target had just opened a few Super Targets and decided to go into Utah with nothing but Super Targets. The plan was to have nothing but Super Targets in that market to see if they dominate with this format since at that time Super Target was seen as the future. Fred Meyer had zero to do with their thinking. It was never mentioned and they didn't really worry about Fred Meyer at all.

I remember those first stores had a Baskin-Robbins and a photo studio inside. Odd but cute, figured it was a way to appeal to families. The problem back then and still is today. The grocery stores are incredibly sterile. People go to Target first for everything else and grocery is nothing more than a convenience pick-up. Until they make grocery front and center, it will fail. But inside Target, grocery has always been a sidelines business. If the day comes that a grocery person runs Target, it will not change. The Apparel and home folks run the business.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by storewanderer »

babs wrote: March 12th, 2023, 7:02 pm
storewanderer wrote: March 10th, 2023, 11:40 pm
Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
Not entirely correct since I have a bit of knowledge about this. Back in the mid-90s, the Salt Lake market was one of the few without any Target stores. Target had just opened a few Super Targets and decided to go into Utah with nothing but Super Targets. The plan was to have nothing but Super Targets in that market to see if they dominate with this format since at that time Super Target was seen as the future. Fred Meyer had zero to do with their thinking. It was never mentioned and they didn't really worry about Fred Meyer at all.

I remember those first stores had a Baskin-Robbins and a photo studio inside. Odd but cute, figured it was a way to appeal to families. The problem back then and still is today. The grocery stores are incredibly sterile. People go to Target first for everything else and grocery is nothing more than a convenience pick-up. Until they make grocery front and center, it will fail. But inside Target, grocery has always been a sidelines business. If the day comes that a grocery person runs Target, it will not change. The Apparel and home folks run the business.
This is interesting. I am surprised they did not consider Fred Meyer at the start of the format in Utah. In that case you have to wonder if the not quite off the charts results in Utah caused them to not expand Super Target further in Fred Meyer's territory. Those Super Targets were in Utah before they were in Denver too as I recall. I think the first Denver Super Target was around 2001 or 2002 in Superior (I think that store had a fire somewhat recently, not sure if it reopened). Many more followed.

Target built in the mid 90's in Carson City with a portrait studio (far front corner of the store adjacent to electronics) and also in the later 90's the Reno Greatland unit with a portrait studio (just inside the electronics/customer service side entry, positioned sort of like a bank would have been). These departments are long gone now.

Also what was the timing of the opening of the Super Targets compared to the timing of Fred Meyer adding food into additional Utah Stores (I thought sometime around when they bought Smiths was when they had added groceries into all but a couple of the Utah Fred Meyer units).
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by pseudo3d »

babs wrote: March 12th, 2023, 7:02 pm
storewanderer wrote: March 10th, 2023, 11:40 pm
Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
Not entirely correct since I have a bit of knowledge about this. Back in the mid-90s, the Salt Lake market was one of the few without any Target stores. Target had just opened a few Super Targets and decided to go into Utah with nothing but Super Targets. The plan was to have nothing but Super Targets in that market to see if they dominate with this format since at that time Super Target was seen as the future. Fred Meyer had zero to do with their thinking. It was never mentioned and they didn't really worry about Fred Meyer at all.

I remember those first stores had a Baskin-Robbins and a photo studio inside. Odd but cute, figured it was a way to appeal to families. The problem back then and still is today. The grocery stores are incredibly sterile. People go to Target first for everything else and grocery is nothing more than a convenience pick-up. Until they make grocery front and center, it will fail. But inside Target, grocery has always been a sidelines business. If the day comes that a grocery person runs Target, it will not change. The Apparel and home folks run the business.
SuperTarget was always different from Kmart and Wal-Mart's supercenters, they weren't open 24 hours (which both Kmart and Wal-Mart did), they typically didn't replace existing stores (which Kmart and Wal-Mart did, the latter especially), and they didn't evolve out of a joint venture (both Kmart and Wal-Mart had full hypermarket ventures that were jointly run by a local grocery company before they bought them out, with Bruno's and Cullum Cos. respectively). In theory, Target's late arrival would allow them to learn from the growing pains of Kmart and Wal-Mart and had a better reputation (cleaner, nicer stores...Kmart's really nice Supercenter stores were at odds with their run-down general merchandise stores).
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by storewanderer »

pseudo3d wrote: March 12th, 2023, 10:14 pm

SuperTarget was always different from Kmart and Wal-Mart's supercenters, they weren't open 24 hours (which both Kmart and Wal-Mart did), they typically didn't replace existing stores (which Kmart and Wal-Mart did, the latter especially), and they didn't evolve out of a joint venture (both Kmart and Wal-Mart had full hypermarket ventures that were jointly run by a local grocery company before they bought them out, with Bruno's and Cullum Cos. respectively). In theory, Target's late arrival would allow them to learn from the growing pains of Kmart and Wal-Mart and had a better reputation (cleaner, nicer stores...Kmart's really nice Supercenter stores were at odds with their run-down general merchandise stores).
The initial form of Super Target that I first saw in Denver was supplied by Supervalu. Not sure how they supplied Salt Lake City (maybe they weren't using Supervalu... Denver was using Supervalu but at the time Supervalu had distribution there and had Cub too). The layout of the perimeter of Super Target felt very much like Meijer but very lacking in offer. After leaving perimeter Super Target was clearly a Target thing run like a Target (very unlike a normal grocery store).

Wal Mart's Supercenter operation evloved out of a Food 4 Less franchise operation they bought and ran for a time. Wal Mart Supercenter is basically a Food 4 Less style grocery store minus pallet shelving being attached to the Wal Mart Store.

I think Super Kmart basically was designed as a copy of Meijer. They had separate systems and management for the grocery side of things, everything was from wholesalers in grocery, they basically separated it from the normal Kmart operation including Big Kmart. Super Kmarts were in separate districts, had different operating policies such as dress code, different staffing models, and had different wage structure for the entire store than regular Kmart also.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by pseudo3d »

storewanderer wrote: March 12th, 2023, 10:46 pm
pseudo3d wrote: March 12th, 2023, 10:14 pm

SuperTarget was always different from Kmart and Wal-Mart's supercenters, they weren't open 24 hours (which both Kmart and Wal-Mart did), they typically didn't replace existing stores (which Kmart and Wal-Mart did, the latter especially), and they didn't evolve out of a joint venture (both Kmart and Wal-Mart had full hypermarket ventures that were jointly run by a local grocery company before they bought them out, with Bruno's and Cullum Cos. respectively). In theory, Target's late arrival would allow them to learn from the growing pains of Kmart and Wal-Mart and had a better reputation (cleaner, nicer stores...Kmart's really nice Supercenter stores were at odds with their run-down general merchandise stores).
The initial form of Super Target that I first saw in Denver was supplied by Supervalu. Not sure how they supplied Salt Lake City (maybe they weren't using Supervalu... Denver was using Supervalu but at the time Supervalu had distribution there and had Cub too). The layout of the perimeter of Super Target felt very much like Meijer but very lacking in offer. After leaving perimeter Super Target was clearly a Target thing run like a Target (very unlike a normal grocery store).

Wal Mart's Supercenter operation evloved out of a Food 4 Less franchise operation they bought and ran for a time. Wal Mart Supercenter is basically a Food 4 Less style grocery store minus pallet shelving being attached to the Wal Mart Store.

I think Super Kmart basically was designed as a copy of Meijer. They had separate systems and management for the grocery side of things, everything was from wholesalers in grocery, they basically separated it from the normal Kmart operation including Big Kmart. Super Kmarts were in separate districts, had different operating policies such as dress code, different staffing models, and had different wage structure for the entire store than regular Kmart also.
From what I remember reading, Hypermart USA was larger, but had some weird quirks in SKUs (no paint mixing, only white paint), while a parallel Wal-Mart Supercenter prototype was developed elsewhere. Kmart launched with American Fare first I believe, which was different than Kmart (more upscale clothing lines) but some articles mention "Super Kmart" tests that utilized defunct Kmart Foods spaces in the late 1980s (these did not graduate to real Super Kmart stores).

I know Kmart never took distribution in-house which was what Wal-Mart did fairly early; instead they relied between SuperValu and Fleming, before signing an exclusivity deal with Fleming in the early 2000s. I'm not sure if Fleming took Kmart down or vice versa, but there were some articles about Fleming threw their independent customers under the bus around this time.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by storewanderer »

pseudo3d wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:00 pm

From what I remember reading, Hypermart USA was larger, but had some weird quirks in SKUs (no paint mixing, only white paint), while a parallel Wal-Mart Supercenter prototype was developed elsewhere. Kmart launched with American Fare first I believe, which was different than Kmart (more upscale clothing lines) but some articles mention "Super Kmart" tests that utilized defunct Kmart Foods spaces in the late 1980s (these did not graduate to real Super Kmart stores).

I know Kmart never took distribution in-house which was what Wal-Mart did fairly early; instead they relied between SuperValu and Fleming, before signing an exclusivity deal with Fleming in the early 2000s. I'm not sure if Fleming took Kmart down or vice versa, but there were some articles about Fleming threw their independent customers under the bus around this time.
Fleming suspended deliveries to Kmart and Kmart filed bankruptcy not long after. Then not long after that Fleming filed bankruptcy. Kmart had a pretty nasty contract with Fleming. There were a lot of volume requirements that needed to be met. Kmart could not buy consumable goods outside Fleming. There was a clause in the contract that would also expand the Fleming agreement to include drug/HBA that never happened. Also the gas stations had to have their gas supplied by some weird division that Fleming had set up probably entirely to supply gas to Kmart (Fleming did have convenience store wholesale too so maybe the fuel division was part of that, who knows).

The problem with Fleming and independents was sometimes Fleming guaranteed the leases of the independent stores they supplied. When Fleming went bankrupt then went out of business, those guarantees became meaningless. Independents who could leave Fleming left during the uncertainty. C&S picked up the pieces well out in NorCal but one of the biggest reasons more in NorCal didn't bolt was because they were stuck due to being F4L franchisees.
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