Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by BatteryMill »

BillyGr wrote: March 10th, 2023, 10:11 am Since no one has Super Kmart any longer, and only some areas have Meyer or Meijer, anywhere else that Target wanted to have a Super format, the only thing to compare to would be Walmart. So, if their offerings are comparable to that chain, most wouldn't know what they are missing (or not really missing, since they have no option to go to those other stores even occasionally, if at all).

Much like people complain about any grocery store not being Wegman's (since they've seen one here or there that they have been, or maybe even lived previously), but if the nearest Wegman's is hours away, people aren't going to go there over whatever stores are local to them, no matter how much they may prefer it.
Would still be smart to get SuperTarget in that case. I don't think it would be a bad investment to divest from online pickup for a little bit too.

Hehe, always with the folks who request Wegmans/Whole Foods/Trader Joe's to fill in every single vacant grocery spot/potential shopping center. Would be fun, but these chains would have more store density than 7-Eleven at that rate.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by Super S »

I am a little surprised that Target hasn't attempted this format around Portland. Especially with Portland's general attitude toward Target versus Walmart. While Fred Meyer is probably better overall in grocery, their shelf prices are rising and have been since they implemented the standard Kroger loyalty card program. Fred Meyer is misfiring a little bit on the general merchandise side though.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by BatteryMill »

Super S wrote: March 10th, 2023, 8:55 pm I am a little surprised that Target hasn't attempted this format around Portland. Especially with Portland's general attitude toward Target versus Walmart. While Fred Meyer is probably better overall in grocery, their shelf prices are rising and have been since they implemented the standard Kroger loyalty card program. Fred Meyer is misfiring a little bit on the general merchandise side though.
That would be great if Target did put effort into making SuperTarget viable, especially today. Perhaps Target never got to expand this format before PFresh took center stage. They were making great strides adapting it to new markets (California's Inland Empire, Virginia, Arizona etc.) in the years before that though, so I think building a few in PDX may have been inevitable.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by storewanderer »

BatteryMill wrote: March 10th, 2023, 9:27 pm
Super S wrote: March 10th, 2023, 8:55 pm I am a little surprised that Target hasn't attempted this format around Portland. Especially with Portland's general attitude toward Target versus Walmart. While Fred Meyer is probably better overall in grocery, their shelf prices are rising and have been since they implemented the standard Kroger loyalty card program. Fred Meyer is misfiring a little bit on the general merchandise side though.
That would be great if Target did put effort into making SuperTarget viable, especially today. Perhaps Target never got to expand this format before PFresh took center stage. They were making great strides adapting it to new markets (California's Inland Empire, Virginia, Arizona etc.) in the years before that though, so I think building a few in PDX may have been inevitable.
Super Target was never "adapted" to any market. They were all the same in merchandising, layout, and product mix. That was one of the big problems with Super Target.

The only time Super Target had any success in the 2004-2008 period was when it became extremely aggressive on price. If you actually price shopped, at that time, they were beating Wal Mart's pricing on branded center store grocery (not so great on perishables though), just trying to buy market share. But it did not really work, aside from in a couple spots like Minneapolis and Denver, they were just never successful with the format.

Target took the approach that made the most sense for California as I see it. Putting up giant Super Target boxes was not going to be easy. Adding in labor/service departments would call attention of the Union and cause unionization drives (the only retail Kmart Store that unionized ever was the meat department at the Oakland Super Kmart, for example), plus with real estate costs so high in California to add extra space to low margin grocery simply did not make sense. Target was better off focusing on higher margin general merchandise. Based on the lack of Wal Mart penetration in a lot of parts of CA, they did not need to mess around with full grocery/low margin/high labor to try to "capture" customers- they had no competitor- they already captured the customers by default in places like the bay area and other "already developed" spots. Now out in the deserts or newer areas where Wal Mart was able to put up standard Supercenters it is another story and that seems to be the few places in CA where Super Target opened. Most of the CA Super Targets have not done particularly well. At least one closed. The format has not been a success story in CA.

Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by arizonaguy »

storewanderer wrote: March 10th, 2023, 11:40 pm
BatteryMill wrote: March 10th, 2023, 9:27 pm
Super S wrote: March 10th, 2023, 8:55 pm I am a little surprised that Target hasn't attempted this format around Portland. Especially with Portland's general attitude toward Target versus Walmart. While Fred Meyer is probably better overall in grocery, their shelf prices are rising and have been since they implemented the standard Kroger loyalty card program. Fred Meyer is misfiring a little bit on the general merchandise side though.
That would be great if Target did put effort into making SuperTarget viable, especially today. Perhaps Target never got to expand this format before PFresh took center stage. They were making great strides adapting it to new markets (California's Inland Empire, Virginia, Arizona etc.) in the years before that though, so I think building a few in PDX may have been inevitable.
Super Target was never "adapted" to any market. They were all the same in merchandising, layout, and product mix. That was one of the big problems with Super Target.

The only time Super Target had any success in the 2004-2008 period was when it became extremely aggressive on price. If you actually price shopped, at that time, they were beating Wal Mart's pricing on branded center store grocery (not so great on perishables though), just trying to buy market share. But it did not really work, aside from in a couple spots like Minneapolis and Denver, they were just never successful with the format.

Target took the approach that made the most sense for California as I see it. Putting up giant Super Target boxes was not going to be easy. Adding in labor/service departments would call attention of the Union and cause unionization drives (the only retail Kmart Store that unionized ever was the meat department at the Oakland Super Kmart, for example), plus with real estate costs so high in California to add extra space to low margin grocery simply did not make sense. Target was better off focusing on higher margin general merchandise. Based on the lack of Wal Mart penetration in a lot of parts of CA, they did not need to mess around with full grocery/low margin/high labor to try to "capture" customers- they had no competitor- they already captured the customers by default in places like the bay area and other "already developed" spots. Now out in the deserts or newer areas where Wal Mart was able to put up standard Supercenters it is another story and that seems to be the few places in CA where Super Target opened. Most of the CA Super Targets have not done particularly well. At least one closed. The format has not been a success story in CA.

Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
Target had a really strange Super Target rollout strategy in Phoenix. Most of the Super Targets it built here were in outer ring suburbs that were just beginning to be developed when the Super Targets were built. These essentially were areas where Walmart could built it's bread and butter supercenter. Then they also used the Super Target format to replace 2 smaller urban locations (7th Ave and Camelback as well as 3rd St and Bell Rd). It seems that after the "urban" locations were opened around 2007 Target abandoned the Super Target concept in Phoenix.

Arizona had one other Super Target built that wasn't in the Phoenix area, it was in Tucson and was another "urban" location that replaced a Target that had started out as a Woolco and had an interior and exterior that seemed like very little was touched since the Woolco days. That Super Target opened in 2009 and is located in a part of Tucson that will probably never get a Walmart Super Center. The nearby Walmart is a division 1 store (I believe one of 2 remaining in Arizona) that has historically been a dump.

I live very close to the 3rd St and Bell Rd location (within walking distance) and I appreciate the expanded grocery selection. I also haven't had any issue with their deli (although have switched to getting "grab and go" deli meat for sandwiches). Whenever I've ordered a cake I tend to use Fry's or Safeway (which are also close by).

I find Super Target to be competitive on most pricing. It has weaker bakery / deli / meat / produce / dairy than Walmart but I can complete my entire grocery list in one trip. I use it as a mid-week "stock up" store, again, as it has a grocery entrance right by the grocery section, usually has fast self-checkout, and it is only 3 minutes from my house.

One thing I have noticed is that Target tends to have the lowest milk prices in the area. Target is currently $2.89 a gallon whereas everyone else is $3.29 or higher (except for Aldi). Target also has a good selection of "unique" private label items almost like a "mini Trader Joe's".

My local Super Target within about 15 miles or so that hasn't been renovated recently. I believe it pretty much has the same interior it had when it opened in 2007.

Also, apparently, there was a fire set in the men's department a couple of days ago which closed the store for 2 - 3 days. I tried to go there on Monday and the store was roped off with Service Master trucks out front. By Thursday the store had re-opened and was busier than ever.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by Brian Lutz »

At the Super Target here (Sandy UT) they actually converted what used to be the service deli area of the store into a Starbucks, which makes for a rather awkward space. There's a small meat department on one side, the bakery department on the other, and the Starbucks cut out of the middle of all that.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by BatteryMill »

storewanderer wrote: March 10th, 2023, 11:40 pm Super Target was never "adapted" to any market. They were all the same in merchandising, layout, and product mix. That was one of the big problems with Super Target.

The only time Super Target had any success in the 2004-2008 period was when it became extremely aggressive on price. If you actually price shopped, at that time, they were beating Wal Mart's pricing on branded center store grocery (not so great on perishables though), just trying to buy market share. But it did not really work, aside from in a couple spots like Minneapolis and Denver, they were just never successful with the format.

Target took the approach that made the most sense for California as I see it. Putting up giant Super Target boxes was not going to be easy. Adding in labor/service departments would call attention of the Union and cause unionization drives (the only retail Kmart Store that unionized ever was the meat department at the Oakland Super Kmart, for example), plus with real estate costs so high in California to add extra space to low margin grocery simply did not make sense. Target was better off focusing on higher margin general merchandise. Based on the lack of Wal Mart penetration in a lot of parts of CA, they did not need to mess around with full grocery/low margin/high labor to try to "capture" customers- they had no competitor- they already captured the customers by default in places like the bay area and other "already developed" spots. Now out in the deserts or newer areas where Wal Mart was able to put up standard Supercenters it is another story and that seems to be the few places in CA where Super Target opened. Most of the CA Super Targets have not done particularly well. At least one closed. The format has not been a success story in CA.

Target is smart enough to not embarrass itself with Super Target in OR/WA against Fred Meyer. That would really expose Target and not in a positive way. However, Target did go after Fred Meyer in Utah opening some Super Targets there. Fred Meyer's position in Utah (smaller stores, older stores, not as well located stores) was much weaker, yet I never hear about Super Target in Utah anymore. They hardly do any grocery business.
I think you're right about that actually, but ST was certainly eager to expand into new regions to the very end. The 04-08 period is certainly where the Supers lost some of their bells and whistles from earlier, I think even bulk foods were gone at that time.

I think SuperTarget may have faded into the background in Utah because that format wasn't expanded beyond the initial 1990s crop, and new locations were instead targeted for regular Targets. Then again I don't know how much of the grocery section was eliminated at those; was it like some of the Supers that got the deli/bakery done away with? Then again I would think ST expanding into Fred Meyer territory today, with it being neutered would be better than in SuperTarget's heyday.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by storewanderer »

BatteryMill wrote: March 11th, 2023, 10:56 am

I think you're right about that actually, but ST was certainly eager to expand into new regions to the very end. The 04-08 period is certainly where the Supers lost some of their bells and whistles from earlier, I think even bulk foods were gone at that time.

I think SuperTarget may have faded into the background in Utah because that format wasn't expanded beyond the initial 1990s crop, and new locations were instead targeted for regular Targets. Then again I don't know how much of the grocery section was eliminated at those; was it like some of the Supers that got the deli/bakery done away with? Then again I would think ST expanding into Fred Meyer territory today, with it being neutered would be better than in SuperTarget's heyday.
There appear to be 3 obvious Super Target in Utah: Orem, Salt Lake City-Park Centre, and Layton.

There is a 4th store, Riverdale, which used to be a Super Target that has Target signs out front but then a sign on the side that says "Grocery" and this store they removed Super Target and just have a P-Fresh there. Not clear what they did with all of the space.

Orem it appears was recently remodeled and kept the Super format with the pathetic attempt at bakery/deli/produce.

So their strategy in Utah on Super Target seems rather unclear. Stores were previously downgraded, one or two were then later recently remodeled and kept Super.

The problem with Target is everything they do with grocery is just convoluted. For years they had a rule no pallets allowed on the sales floor. That is fine, but with groceries, this caused a lot of out of stocks (this was further caused by how Target's shelves did not allocate enough space to get full cases of grocery items stocked onto the shelf at one time) and it made it very difficult for the backroom to keep the shelves replenished and gave the backroom a lot of bin tracking of sub $1 single cans or boxes of food and that did not make sense.

Another one which probably means nothing really but I find annoying is on produce. There are industry standard produce PLU codes. They are on stickers on produce and the stuff scans too. Of course Target... they have to be smarter than everyone else. They do not use the industry standard produce PLU codes, their system doesn't recognize scanning a produce sticker, they have their own PLU for produce so with produce sales every single item has to be looked up by the cashier on the register. This may be okay in a P-Fresh where about 10 customers per day buy produce, but in a Super Target where ideally you have hundreds of customers a day buying produce and many buying perhaps 5-8 different produce items in a single transaction, this is a big problem.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by retailfanmitchell019 »

storewanderer wrote: March 11th, 2023, 12:02 pm
The problem with Target is everything they do with grocery is just convoluted. For years they had a rule no pallets allowed on the sales floor. That is fine, but with groceries, this caused a lot of out of stocks (this was further caused by how Target's shelves did not allocate enough space to get full cases of grocery items stocked onto the shelf at one time) and it made it very difficult for the backroom to keep the shelves replenished and gave the backroom a lot of bin tracking of sub $1 single cans or boxes of food and that did not make sense.

Another one which probably means nothing really but I find annoying is on produce. There are industry standard produce PLU codes. They are on stickers on produce and the stuff scans too. Of course Target... they have to be smarter than everyone else. They do not use the industry standard produce PLU codes, their system doesn't recognize scanning a produce sticker, they have their own PLU for produce so with produce sales every single item has to be looked up by the cashier on the register. This may be okay in a P-Fresh where about 10 customers per day buy produce, but in a Super Target where ideally you have hundreds of customers a day buying produce and many buying perhaps 5-8 different produce items in a single transaction, this is a big problem.
In 2005, before the Albertsons breakup, there was rumors of Target acquiring Albertsons. That could've helped their grocery strategy.
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Re: Is "SuperTarget" making a comeback?

Post by veteran+ »

As I am a fan of Target over Walmart I find it very sad they missed the boat and continue to travel in circles of misdirection.

If Walmart proved anything, it is that having a a Real grocery department during strange economic times is extremely beneficial to the bottom line. The "right" balance between discretionary spending and essential (staples) spending.

That P-Fresh was a total joke.
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