Giant Eagle loses #1 Share in Pittsburgh- Wal Mart now #1

[Romr123]

I'd thought I'd read that Pittsburgh was on Meijer's list after they built out Cleveland; but it seems like they're building out the Illinois side of St. Louis. They had some experience there coming from Fresh Thyme, so perhaps it tilted them toward St. Louis (Fresh Thyme has a few stores in Pittsburgh, though...)

[buckguy]

One impediment to entering the Pittsburgh market is related to the comment I made about Wegman's---the surrounding markets are not doing well which would limit the distrubtion opportunities. Beyond that Kroger, frankly, doesn't bring much to the table. The Giant Eagle's I've been too are as bland and foregttable as any Kroger, with lackluster bakery, etc. My guess is that the 1984 strike simply provided a pretext for them to leave--as in Cleveland, they were, at best, always a second level player.

The closing of the steel industry in Pittsburgh hit hard and fast, earlier than large industrial closings in other cities in the region, with the exception of Youngstown, wher it happened even more suddenly. The economy was contacting and it affected the suburbs and exurbs to a greater degree than deindustrialization did in other cities because of where the mills were located. Pittsburgh has been lucky to hold on to the HQs and R&D of its other large employers and to benefit from Pitt (esp. the med school) and Carnegie-Mellon (computers and engineering) which has enabled some stability and resurgence, but Pittsburg in the 80s was in really bad shape and Kroger wasn't going to survive. Ontime hometown favorite Thorofare also had labor troubles and even moved their DC to the old National Tea/Loblaw DC in Youngstown, but they went no where but down after a big strike.

Meijer would bring more to Pittsburgh than Kroger--the secondary markets might not be attractive to them, too,

[BatteryMill]

One impediment to entering the Pittsburgh market is related to the comment I made about Wegman's---the surrounding markets are not doing well which would limit the distrubtion opportunities. Beyond that Kroger, frankly, doesn't bring much to the table. The Giant Eagle's I've been too are as bland and foregttable as any Kroger, with lackluster bakery, etc. My guess is that the 1984 strike simply provided a pretext for them to leave--as in Cleveland, they were, at best, always a second level player.

The closing of the steel industry in Pittsburgh hit hard and fast, earlier than large industrial closings in other cities in the region, with the exception of Youngstown, wher it happened even more suddenly. The economy was contacting and it affected the suburbs and exurbs to a greater degree than deindustrialization did in other cities because of where the mills were located. Pittsburgh has been lucky to hold on to the HQs and R&D of its other large employers and to benefit from Pitt (esp. the med school) and Carnegie-Mellon (computers and engineering) which has enabled some stability and resurgence, but Pittsburg in the 80s was in really bad shape and Kroger wasn't going to survive. Ontime hometown favorite Thorofare also had labor troubles and even moved their DC to the old National Tea/Loblaw DC in Youngstown, but they went no where but down after a big strike.

Meijer would bring more to Pittsburgh than Kroger--the secondary markets might not be attractive to them, too,

What I would like to note is that Kroger was evacuating so many other markets at the time due to labor strike issues, their own financial problems, industry consolidation, as well as the hostile takeover threat that loomed greatly over Safeway as well. Not sure if it compounds or if Kroger would have otherwise stayed in the market. I think that their higher-end or discount concepts could bring a good jolt to the market, yes.

Although, with GEagle slipping only one place, has the Pittsburgh market really opened itself up to competition yet or no?

[storewanderer]

One impediment to entering the Pittsburgh market is related to the comment I made about Wegman's---the surrounding markets are not doing well which would limit the distrubtion opportunities. Beyond that Kroger, frankly, doesn't bring much to the table. The Giant Eagle's I've been too are as bland and foregttable as any Kroger, with lackluster bakery, etc. My guess is that the 1984 strike simply provided a pretext for them to leave--as in Cleveland, they were, at best, always a second level player.

Meijer would bring more to Pittsburgh than Kroger--the secondary markets might not be attractive to them, too,

Kroger would bring a far stronger pricing, private label, perimeter, loyalty program to Giant Eagle. It would be like night and day. I am just not sure how easy it would be to get the customers back overnight.

[buckguy]

One impediment to entering the Pittsburgh market is related to the comment I made about Wegman's---the surrounding markets are not doing well which would limit the distrubtion opportunities. Beyond that Kroger, frankly, doesn't bring much to the table. The Giant Eagle's I've been too are as bland and foregttable as any Kroger, with lackluster bakery, etc. My guess is that the 1984 strike simply provided a pretext for them to leave--as in Cleveland, they were, at best, always a second level player.

Meijer would bring more to Pittsburgh than Kroger--the secondary markets might not be attractive to them, too,

Kroger would bring a far stronger pricing, private label, perimeter, loyalty program to Giant Eagle. It would be like night and day. I am just not sure how easy it would be to get the customers back overnight.

The only advantage to the loyalty program would be the geography, which probably isn't a big inducement. The perimeter at a mainline Kroger has always been medicore at best and Kroger brand stuff doesn't stand out very much compared to Topco (GE's primary supplier). Kroger, like Safeway, is nice to see on a road trip because you know what you have, but they're not a store worth going out of your way to shop.

[storewanderer]

Kroger private label program is outstanding compared to the Topco offer, or any offer, they have by far the best and most successful private label consumable program in the US. It is larger, has more SKUs, stronger pricing, and better marketing. Topco has a very good program but it is mispriced and often patchwork type assortment is problematic.

There is a reason there aren't many strong Topco supplied chains left in Kroger territory. Kroger bought the good ones like Harris Teeter and Dillon Cos. For others, weak ones, Kroger ran them out of business or crippled them down to almost no stores.

Kroger would do better on perimeter meat and produce due to stronger pricing. Bakery and deli would probably be a wash.

[BillyGr]

Wegman's would do just fine in the main Pittsburgh metro, which has a lot of similarities with Buffalo and Rochester which they know well. Also, unlike a lot of places, the well-off parts of Greater Pittsburgh are not concentrated in one or two places but are in several different areas--high spots in the city or near the Allegheny or Ohio Rivers in the suburbs and in the South Hills. That would set-up Wegmans to have several locations with distinct markets, although the topography might call for smaller stores. I've been to Wegman's in places where they do compete with Giant Eagle, like Erie and they seem to do just fine. The downside for Wegman's would be the lack of sizable secondary markets to round out distribution---the various towns in Pittsburgh's orbit including bigger ones like Johnstown keep losing population or are just treading water and sizable places a bit further afield like Wheeling and Steubenville are in the same boat.

Not sure that would matter to them, given the way they have expanded over the years. Things like the 9 stores in NJ (where one could likely find 9 ShopRite stores in a 10-mile radius, vs. their 9 in the entire state) or even the 6 in MA that are at least a couple hundred miles from any other stores in either NY or NJ showing that they don't mind putting stores in without having a huge concentration in one area.
Thus a few in Pittsburgh proper (as you suggest) would be a fine cluster without any in other towns in the region, and closer to other stores (in the eastern portions of the state) than those MA ones are to other Wegman's areas.

[buckguy]

Wegman's would do just fine in the main Pittsburgh metro, which has a lot of similarities with Buffalo and Rochester which they know well. Also, unlike a lot of places, the well-off parts of Greater Pittsburgh are not concentrated in one or two places but are in several different areas--high spots in the city or near the Allegheny or Ohio Rivers in the suburbs and in the South Hills. That would set-up Wegmans to have several locations with distinct markets, although the topography might call for smaller stores. I've been to Wegman's in places where they do compete with Giant Eagle, like Erie and they seem to do just fine. The downside for Wegman's would be the lack of sizable secondary markets to round out distribution---the various towns in Pittsburgh's orbit including bigger ones like Johnstown keep losing population or are just treading water and sizable places a bit further afield like Wheeling and Steubenville are in the same boat.

Not sure that would matter to them, given the way they have expanded over the years. Things like the 9 stores in NJ (where one could likely find 9 ShopRite stores in a 10-mile radius, vs. their 9 in the entire state) or even the 6 in MA that are at least a couple hundred miles from any other stores in either NY or NJ showing that they don't mind putting stores in without having a huge concentration in one area.
Thus a few in Pittsburgh proper (as you suggest) would be a fine cluster without any in other towns in the region, and closer to other stores (in the eastern portions of the state) than those MA ones are to other Wegman's areas.

NY and Boston are far from Wegman's base, but the populations of those areas dwarf Greater Pittsburgh and there are smaller markets (Allentown, Scranton, even Binghamton) between Rochester and Boston/NYC that are sizable and stable, if not vibrant, enough for them to have stores. Between Erie or State College (where Wegman's has stores) and Pittsburgh, there wouldn't be many promising locations for them. Smaller markets in Central/Eastern PA like Lancaster are big enough and economically vital hubs for them to have stores, but Western PA doesn't have any place comparable. In terms of developing Northeastern locations, Wegman's has a lot of future opportunity in Connecticut and probably could get at least one store in western Massachusetts, not to mention stores in the Capital Region. If they went into Pittsburgh, they probably could open 3, maybe 4 stores over time, which might not be enough to justify crossing the mountains to get there.

[BillyGr]

Wegman's would do just fine in the main Pittsburgh metro, which has a lot of similarities with Buffalo and Rochester which they know well. Also, unlike a lot of places, the well-off parts of Greater Pittsburgh are not concentrated in one or two places but are in several different areas--high spots in the city or near the Allegheny or Ohio Rivers in the suburbs and in the South Hills. That would set-up Wegmans to have several locations with distinct markets, although the topography might call for smaller stores. I've been to Wegman's in places where they do compete with Giant Eagle, like Erie and they seem to do just fine. The downside for Wegman's would be the lack of sizable secondary markets to round out distribution---the various towns in Pittsburgh's orbit including bigger ones like Johnstown keep losing population or are just treading water and sizable places a bit further afield like Wheeling and Steubenville are in the same boat.

Not sure that would matter to them, given the way they have expanded over the years. Things like the 9 stores in NJ (where one could likely find 9 ShopRite stores in a 10-mile radius, vs. their 9 in the entire state) or even the 6 in MA that are at least a couple hundred miles from any other stores in either NY or NJ showing that they don't mind putting stores in without having a huge concentration in one area.
Thus a few in Pittsburgh proper (as you suggest) would be a fine cluster without any in other towns in the region, and closer to other stores (in the eastern portions of the state) than those MA ones are to other Wegman's areas.

NY and Boston are far from Wegman's base, but the populations of those areas dwarf Greater Pittsburgh and there are smaller markets (Allentown, Scranton, even Binghamton) between Rochester and Boston/NYC that are sizable and stable, if not vibrant, enough for them to have stores. Between Erie or State College (where Wegman's has stores) and Pittsburgh, there wouldn't be many promising locations for them. Smaller markets in Central/Eastern PA like Lancaster are big enough and economically vital hubs for them to have stores, but Western PA doesn't have any place comparable. In terms of developing Northeastern locations, Wegman's has a lot of future opportunity in Connecticut and probably could get at least one store in western Massachusetts, not to mention stores in the Capital Region. If they went into Pittsburgh, they probably could open 3, maybe 4 stores over time, which might not be enough to justify crossing the mountains to get there.

They already go east of Rochester (at least to the Syracuse area) - beyond that they never have (which, at least at one time was said to be an agreement between them and Price Chopper - both are around Syracuse but Wegmans doesn't go further east and PC doesn't go further west). Of course, that was before the Tops/PC parent company combination.

Connecticut certainly seems logical, in addition to possibly some additional stores around NYC proper. Maybe Springfield area of MA would work, not sure that anything further west is really big enough for them either.

The main point was that, over the years, they have developed stores in somewhat far away areas without having any large quantity (like the ones in NJ - I think those started with only 3 or so, as did the ones down into VA and the Carolinas).
As long as there is a market, they don't seem to mind not having a quantity in one spot like many chains would want to have - maybe the larger size of the stores and volumes mean that they don't really need to (since things like supplies for a store could fill a whole truck easier than it would for most stores, as an example) - and that people hear about them and travel to their stores from farther than they would for most brands.

[retailfanmitchell019]

Topco has a very good program but it is mispriced and often patchwork type assortment is problematic.

There is a reason there aren't many strong Topco supplied chains left in Kroger territory. Kroger bought the good ones like Harris Teeter and Dillon Cos. For others, weak ones, Kroger ran them out of business or crippled them down to almost no stores.

Topco has improved in the last few years with nicer packaging and better quality. The Stater Bros. brand (a rebadge of Food Club) has quality about as good as Albertsons brands.

A few of the chains Albertsons/Safeway bought were previously Topco members: Tom Thumb/Randalls, Shaw's, Dominick's, Genuardi's, Haggen. I think Buttrey may have been a Topco member.

Topco had a few members internationally, Seiyu (Japan), Oshawa Group (Canada), and Blue Square (Israel).