Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

California. No non-grocery posts.
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

mbz321 wrote: April 29th, 2023, 5:25 pm
storewanderer wrote: April 27th, 2023, 11:52 pm

California needs to eliminate its plastic bag ban and stores need to have the option to stop allowing reusable bags to combat all of this theft. Those super thick plastic bags everyone is using anyway generate so much plastic waste the whole thing is not accomplishing its intended goal anyway. Perhaps rich person stores in rich neighborhoods like Whole Foods would continue the bag regulations on their own but out in the neighborhoods that are more middle class there is too much theft to continue this way, unless the stores want to.
:lol: :lol:
No, California and associated cities need to start getting tougher on Crime...period. Otherwise you are going to keep seeing 'creative' security measures pop up such as this, if the stores don't close altogether.
They aren't going to get tougher on Crime. If anything they are going to get more and more lax. I agree that they should get tougher on Crime but that is not the direction they are going. Existing laws are in place that are not even being enforced.

So they can start to disallow reusable bags in the store and start providing customers single use bags again at checkout to designate items exiting are actually paid for. That is a start. The cities and state will stop enforcing the bag ban since they selectively enforce various other laws in the state anyway, not enforcing that one would be pretty much consistent with how they do things in California.
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: April 29th, 2023, 1:42 pm Great questions!

Deep research from reliable sources would be required to answer most of these questions.

Anecdotal, empirical observation and a biased employee/customer might not be enough.

I believe the answers are complicated at best.

Side note: IMHO, if anyone can answer some of these questions, it's you! :)
Okay let's go somewhere with this.

Let's go to the defund the police/reallocate funds to social workers thing.

Scenario- shoplifting of baby formula.

So you have someone who shoplifts baby formula from a store and is stopped/detained by loss prevention and police are called and respond (I know this doesn't happen in California). Once it is all said and done the store lets it out that they have video of this person stealing formula once a week for the past 5 months and the total value of the formula stolen is $1,250 over that time period.

Now let's go with this operates under a program where police as well as a social worker are dispatched to this call (again not in the real world but let's go with it). The crime has been committed. The social worker shows up and talks to the shoplifter, and determines the shoplifter was actually eligible for some benefit that would provide free formula, etc. The social worker has a tablet and gets the person enrolled for the benefit on the spot and it is immediately approved.

So what happens now? How does this go? Does the person still get prosecuted for their previous shoplifting (plus trespassed out of that chain's stores as is standard policy)? Or do you figure out a way to allow them to retroactively apply for the state benefit program and then have the state benefit program pick up all the costs of what was stolen in the past, then the person is not prosecuted?
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

HCal wrote: April 28th, 2023, 11:36 pm In Denmark, and perhaps other European countries, having to scan your receipt at a gate to exit the store is standard, whether you used a traditional register or self-checkout. So I don't think this is inherently a bad thing, although it can feel a bit awkward. How about Costco's receipt checks at the exit, are they also "hostile" and "alienating"?

Also as we are moving more toward a direction of no receipts, due to the environmental issues surrounding paper receipts, this business of scanning a receipt upon exit is not feasible due to that situation. Thermal receipt paper often (not always) contains BPA, is not recyclable, and contaminates streams and waterways not unlike plastic. Some countries have banned thermal receipt paper.
ClownLoach
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2689
Joined: April 4th, 2016, 10:55 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 289 times
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by ClownLoach »

storewanderer wrote: April 29th, 2023, 5:42 pm
HCal wrote: April 28th, 2023, 11:36 pm In Denmark, and perhaps other European countries, having to scan your receipt at a gate to exit the store is standard, whether you used a traditional register or self-checkout. So I don't think this is inherently a bad thing, although it can feel a bit awkward. How about Costco's receipt checks at the exit, are they also "hostile" and "alienating"?

Also as we are moving more toward a direction of no receipts, due to the environmental issues surrounding paper receipts, this business of scanning a receipt upon exit is not feasible due to that situation. Thermal receipt paper often (not always) contains BPA, is not recyclable, and contaminates streams and waterways not unlike plastic. Some countries have banned thermal receipt paper.
California had a bill pending in the Assembly, obviously written by a person who thinks everyone who runs a business has unlimited funding, which bans paper receipts at all retailers, restaurants etc. I don't believe they've advanced it to a vote since I'm sure every major retailer has told them they're not going to write a California specific POS because of their conflicting laws banning the collection of Personally Identifying Information. It would potentially be a gold mine for lawyers with questionable ethics to basically sue every single retailer demanding to see the code in their systems to ensure there isn't any possibility of PII misuse since this bill would basically require you to disclose a phone number or email address. This bill would even require restaurants to buy costly tablet computers for all transactions as they wouldn't be allowed to present a paper copy of the bill. Not to mention that customers already cannot figure out how to press a Gigantic blinking green button that says "PAY NOW" on self checkout machines, so how would they handle similar equipment being added to a regular check lane? This simple matter, if imposed on businesses with a near immediate deadline, would have probably closed another 50,000 businesses and eliminated any remaining full service checkout at any retailer due to the explosion in transaction length it would create as customers spend two minutes typing their email address of threeyippypuppyhouseonwinchester171242@aol.com

And before someone says that "Square and other systems are emailing or texting receipts already automatically" - yes, they are - but that doesn't mean they're fully compliant with the California laws. It just means that so far nobody has taken the time to sue because they know the businesses (the liable party) don't have deep enough pockets to be worth sueing. Retailers currently have to be extra careful with how they handle the data on loyalty cards etc. and it could cross the line of they don't offer a perfect solution for those who don't want a card.
Last edited by ClownLoach on April 29th, 2023, 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

ClownLoach wrote: April 29th, 2023, 11:06 am
storewanderer wrote: April 28th, 2023, 10:10 pm
This type of thing makes me question how valuable Safeway NorCal Division actually is. How many stores are in this type of situation? These bay area stores - the ones I thought were some of the most profitable, seem to have turned into some pretty troubling targets for shoplifting. And I think a lot of the changes they are making are turning away honest customers.
This is really a good discussion point.

News articles recently state that the Bay Area is the "second most targeted" market in the US for shoplifting and ORC theft. But they state Los Angeles is #1.

My experience over the last decade of reviewing shrink reports has been that the NorCal stores are far and beyond higher shrink in percent to sales than LA. And it's not even close.

So this makes me start to wonder why as I compare the two areas. And I don't have all the answers but some of you might.

So my question is: did the mass closing of mainstream stores in SoCal, especially the LA market, ultimately drive up volume enough to offset shrink percentage so that they don't need these lock down measures? Is this an event that hasn't yet happened in NorCal - is store count too high there, causing lower volumes and higher shrink percentages (plus more stores meaning more exposure to theft)? Does this factor of too many stores and not enough volume mean they have little choice but to build these "prison bars" and elaborate entry mazes and such?

How many stores does Safeway operate per capita there versus say Ralphs in SoCal? I recall Ralphs (separate of F4L) peaking around 350 stores and I believe there are less than 175 left, nearly a 50% reduction. Quite bluntly there are no quiet little neighborhood Ralphs stores left anywhere - only the "A" and "B" volume type stores.
It appears various companies let the shrink in NorCal "pass" for too long and now it has spiraled beyond out of control. And now nobody knows what to do. But it seems the shrink problems target these grocery/drug/Target/Wal Mart Stores the most. Again I think they are targeted due to the ease of access, a history of lax security policies, often not having live loss prevention physically present in the store at all times, and plastic bag ban/reusable bag rules that make it so easy for shoplifters to blend in and fill up a reusable bag and bolt. You don't hear the department stores complaining about all this shoplifting (since they aren't subject to any bag rules, typically have live loss prevention on duty at all times, etc.).

In the bay area, Safeway still has a lot of smaller stores left. They have done a lot of creative expansions/relocations/redevelopments over the years though. Outside the bay area (Sacramento, etc.) the store base is more modern but there are smaller stores left in some rural areas that don't do very much volume (also probably close to zero shrink).

So let's look at San Francisco and San Jose.
San Francisco has about 815k people and has 14 Safeway+2 Andronicos. Lucky has 3 stores and FoodsCo has 2 stores. There are no other conventional operators there but there are 9 Whole Foods and 6 Trader Joe's, plus various other stores.
San Jose has about 983k people and has 14 Safeway, 7 Lucky, 4 Food Maxx, 2 Raleys (Nob Hill), 4 Trader Joe's, 2 Whole Foods, and numerous other ethnic stores, Wal Mart, Target units with a lot of grocery space, etc.
mbz321
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 747
Joined: March 11th, 2010, 7:52 pm
Has thanked: 96 times
Been thanked: 54 times
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by mbz321 »

storewanderer wrote: April 29th, 2023, 5:31 pm

So they can start to disallow reusable bags in the store and start providing customers single use bags again at checkout to designate items exiting are actually paid for.
So in that scenario, couldn't I just save some 'Safeway' bags from a previous trip, or grab them from an unattended till, load them up, and walk out? :lol: 'Professional' shoplifters don't even bother with bags, they just load up baby strollers or push full carts full of stuff to a getaway vehicle. The whole 'reusable' bag issue has very little to do with shoplifting, and from stories I read, stores that have 'security' very rarely stop people anyway.
ClownLoach
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2689
Joined: April 4th, 2016, 10:55 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 289 times
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by ClownLoach »

mbz321 wrote: April 29th, 2023, 5:59 pm
storewanderer wrote: April 29th, 2023, 5:31 pm

So they can start to disallow reusable bags in the store and start providing customers single use bags again at checkout to designate items exiting are actually paid for.
So in that scenario, couldn't I just save some 'Safeway' bags from a previous trip, or grab them from an unattended till, load them up, and walk out? :lol: 'Professional' shoplifters don't even bother with bags, they just load up baby strollers or push full carts full of stuff to a getaway vehicle. The whole 'reusable' bag issue has very little to do with shoplifting, and from stories I read, stores that have 'security' very rarely stop people anyway.
Actually that's exactly what they do. Some retailers now carefully remove all bags and secure them from closed registers. And then they target all the tiny items that add up to big bucks. Medications. Deodorant. Skin care stuff. Four or five reusable grocery bags can easily hold $2000 of the right items. The cases where they load a cart with Tide Pods are obviously prime time TV but not the most common loss.
storewanderer
Posts: 14379
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

mbz321 wrote: April 29th, 2023, 5:59 pm
storewanderer wrote: April 29th, 2023, 5:31 pm

So they can start to disallow reusable bags in the store and start providing customers single use bags again at checkout to designate items exiting are actually paid for.
So in that scenario, couldn't I just save some 'Safeway' bags from a previous trip, or grab them from an unattended till, load them up, and walk out? :lol: 'Professional' shoplifters don't even bother with bags, they just load up baby strollers or push full carts full of stuff to a getaway vehicle. The whole 'reusable' bag issue has very little to do with shoplifting, and from stories I read, stores that have 'security' very rarely stop people anyway.
That is true, you could use bags from a previous trip, but there is only so much you can get into the thin bags... and if you start throwing stuff into them like crazy or jerking them around quickly, they will break; unlike the stronger reusables that fit way more stuff and do not break even if you throw stuff in, jerk them around, etc. If a store has shoplifting problems, they remove bags from unattended registers (pretty much every Wal Mart in my area does that and so does one Smiths). I have also seem some Fred Meyer Stores in OR/WA that security tag with that plastic two piece/needle type security tag every reusable bag them are selling (so you can't open the reusable bag until checkout removes the security tag).

Also as you point out shoplifters push full carts to a getaway vehicle. Yes, full carts full of reusable bags. Not loose items. Because they actually need to get away, fast. This is why the reusable bags are so great for the shoplifters... they can fit a lot of heavy items into a low number of bags and get away very fast. If they have all loose items they are just on camera in the parking lot that much longer. The goal of shoplifters is to get away as fast as possible.

The difference is if fewer people are using reusable bags, it will be much easier to watch those using them. The shoplifters will no longer as easily blend in by using reusable bags. They will be less comfortable shoplifting with reusable bags (sure they can still do it other ways). There aren't that many people in a store with a stroller at once, even fewer with closed strollers or who keep "messing with the stroller" (sign of potentially shoplifting); it is pretty easy to watch them.

The problem with the reusable bags is the behavior of the shoplifter isn't much different from a lot of other customers with reusable bags. This makes it much more difficult to filter out the shoplifter who is using reusable bags to do so vs. the honest customer. However if nobody in the store was using reusable bags except the shoplifter, they'd stick out, and be noticed, quickly.

It is very well documented that reusable bags are a commonly used vehicle of shoplifters (they may well shoplift the reusable bags from the very store they are shoplifting from). This is a problem everywhere. But in a place like California the problem is going to be much, much worse.

But you don't have to believe it. However the situation speaks for itself. The retailers being targeted by theft the most are subject to plastic bag bans. The cities/states with these problems all have plastic bag bans. It is very clear this is causing increased shoplifting. In the coming years you'll hear more about similar problems in stores in states that have implemented plastic bag bans in the past year.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... den-spoils



https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/999454 ... permarkets

http://www.tribune242.com/news/2020/feb ... -shoplift/
veteran+
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2233
Joined: January 3rd, 2015, 7:53 am
Has thanked: 1202 times
Been thanked: 71 times
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by veteran+ »

Oh boy......................................................... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

California, California, California - GEESH!
ClownLoach
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2689
Joined: April 4th, 2016, 10:55 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 289 times
Status: Offline

Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by ClownLoach »

veteran+ wrote: April 30th, 2023, 7:50 am Oh boy......................................................... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

California, California, California - GEESH!
As said above the reusable bag theft problem is exploding everywhere they're rolled out. At some point when this all started I recall seeing news stories that showed how great it was to use the reusable tote style bags in the grocery store. Just bag things up as you shop! What never made any sense about these videos is that the bags still have to get emptied back out at checkout and you had a cart already! But the concept sure stuck with the shoplifters. It's like they were trained to do it. I've heard shrink in New Jersey exploded almost immediately when they rolled out there, even worse because they banned everything but reusable totes. No paper or thick plastic. So everyone's using the best vehicle for shoplifting, the tote bags.

Again there has to be an answer to eliminating this unnecessary behavior of bagging in the cart. Nobody who intends to pay for the product should be doing this.
Post Reply