Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by veteran+ »

ClownLoach wrote: April 30th, 2023, 9:17 am
veteran+ wrote: April 30th, 2023, 7:50 am Oh boy......................................................... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

California, California, California - GEESH!
As said above the reusable bag theft problem is exploding everywhere they're rolled out. At some point when this all started I recall seeing news stories that showed how great it was to use the reusable tote style bags in the grocery store. Just bag things up as you shop! What never made any sense about these videos is that the bags still have to get emptied back out at checkout and you had a cart already! But the concept sure stuck with the shoplifters. It's like they were trained to do it. I've heard shrink in New Jersey exploded almost immediately when they rolled out there, even worse because they banned everything but reusable totes. No paper or thick plastic. So everyone's using the best vehicle for shoplifting, the tote bags.

Again there has to be an answer to eliminating this unnecessary behavior of bagging in the cart. Nobody who intends to pay for the product should be doing this.
I concur!

I was speaking more about the constant non stop demonization and propaganda about California "anything".

Someone needs to come up with a new and more interesting State to constantly target (there are excellent candidates that would qualify with all the abonimable things going on there).

It's has become quite boring for discussion.
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by BillyGr »

ClownLoach wrote: April 30th, 2023, 9:17 am As said above the reusable bag theft problem is exploding everywhere they're rolled out. At some point when this all started I recall seeing news stories that showed how great it was to use the reusable tote style bags in the grocery store. Just bag things up as you shop! What never made any sense about these videos is that the bags still have to get emptied back out at checkout and you had a cart already! But the concept sure stuck with the shoplifters. It's like they were trained to do it. I've heard shrink in New Jersey exploded almost immediately when they rolled out there, even worse because they banned everything but reusable totes. No paper or thick plastic. So everyone's using the best vehicle for shoplifting, the tote bags.

Again there has to be an answer to eliminating this unnecessary behavior of bagging in the cart. Nobody who intends to pay for the product should be doing this.
There is an easy answer that does NOT require anything difficult.
Simply post at every entry that NO ITEMS are allowed to be bagged UNTIL THEY ARE CHECKED OUT.

The only needed exception would be for prescriptions if the store has a pharmacy, but those the pharmacy can bag (and even staple the bag shut with the receipt attached if they wish, to be sure nothing else gets added to the bag).

That way, ANYONE putting ANY ITEMS in a bag can be stopped and checked at will (since they are not following the rules set by the store).

They can leave the bags (folded up/unopened) in the cart or even the bottom of the hand basket until they get to check out, then open them (so that it is easy to see that they are empty) and start filling them as items are rung up (by either cashier or customer).
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

BillyGr wrote: April 30th, 2023, 4:58 pm

There is an easy answer that does NOT require anything difficult.
Simply post at every entry that NO ITEMS are allowed to be bagged UNTIL THEY ARE CHECKED OUT.

The only needed exception would be for prescriptions if the store has a pharmacy, but those the pharmacy can bag (and even staple the bag shut with the receipt attached if they wish, to be sure nothing else gets added to the bag).

That way, ANYONE putting ANY ITEMS in a bag can be stopped and checked at will (since they are not following the rules set by the store).

They can leave the bags (folded up/unopened) in the cart or even the bottom of the hand basket until they get to check out, then open them (so that it is easy to see that they are empty) and start filling them as items are rung up (by either cashier or customer).
The store can stop it if there are only a couple of customers in the store bagging items as they shop. The problem is at any given time there are dozens of customers bagging items as they shop. The store does not have dozens of security employees to go around and tell these customers to not bag items as they shop. Furthermore, I have observed multiple times when employees tell customers to stop bagging items as they shop, the customers ignore the employee, spit on the employee, or are otherwise disrespectful to the employee. Telling someone to not use reusable bags on the sales floor is not something a normal floor employee should be doing because it is a potential theft interaction. That is the type of interaction that needs to be done by loss prevention/management only and probably with a witness. You tell the shoplifter to not fill their reusable bags on the sales floor and they will pull a knife or gun on you as they bolt toward the exit with their partially filled reusable bags. Meanwhile since they get to the exit before loss prevention since they have a head start, there is no chance at a stop taking place.

Stores have done exactly as you state: they have posted signs stating not to use reusable bags until you have paid. Some have even played radio announcements telling customers to not use reusable bags while shopping. It doesn't matter. Customers do not listen. So many customers do not listen that they basically provide "cover" for the shoplifters to help them blend in.

The rule should probably be ANY customer with reusable bags MUST use a cart and said reusable bags (or backpack they bring in with them, duffle bag, whatever) MUST remain on the bottom rack of the shopping cart AT ALL TIMES. Period. Any deviation from that will be grounds for trespass.

The next stupid thing California has done since Veteran wants us to focus on California specific rules (given the links I sent above were mostly non-California stores having issues with reusable bags and shoplifting) is California has banned the plastic produce bags or any "pre checkout" plastic bag. That is all good and well. They have replacement Compostable bags that can be used (probably made by the company who lobbied the California politicians to ban the plastic bags) and some stores notably Trader Joe's already use those Compostable produce bags. The problem? These Compostable bags are not clear/see through. So you have another loss prevention problem- customers can underring produce since nobody can see what is actually in the bags. Customers can further conceal small items like spices, drug items, etc. within the produce bags and it will be impossible for loss prevention to detect exactly what is in the bag because the bag is not see through. Even with cameras recording everything at checkout it will be very difficult to prove theft/concealment with these new non-see through Compostable bags.

Now, this could be easily resolved by having human cashiers process every transaction. They could ensure the bags had just fruits in them (when looking in to get the PLU). But with self checkout this is another shoplifter's dream.

High theft stores in California including 99 Ranch/Food 4 Less/FoodsCo already have gotten specific "super thick plastic bags" for the 10 cent fee that are clear/see through. The reason for this is to ensure bags being brought back into the store are empty, and also so they can ensure customers do not somehow stuff the bags with unpaid merchandise after checking out, or if customers do, since the bags are clear/see through, they can prove a theft took place using the camera images.

It is pretty easy to prove theft when a customer does not go through a checkout at all. You can say they stole everything because they did not go through checkout. It gets much more complicated to prove theft when a customer does go through checkout and pay for some items, but chooses to conceal some items in a reusable bag or a Compostable produce bag.

But keep on pushing these reusable bags. They are terrible for the environment, worse than the thin plastic bags they replaced. All customers will pay the price for increased theft, as well as customers in larger cities dealing with additional security measures due to these stupid policies to make the plastic police happy that in the real world hurt the environment more than they help it.
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by HCal »

storewanderer wrote: April 29th, 2023, 12:21 am The reaction of the community to what Safeway is trying, if the article is any indication, is so overwhelmingly negative, I question how much of the community will continue to support the store. It also sounds like it is really treading on the employees badly.
I doubt the article is much of an indication. Media likes to dramatize these things. All they have to do is find a few outspoken people who are upset about something, and then quote them in the article, making it sound like they represent the voice of the community. I really doubt very many people would switch stores because of something like this on "principle", because it makes no logical sense to drive to a less convenient store in order to avoid having to scan your receipt at a gate.

Back on topic, California's plastic bag ban isn't going anywhere. The environmental lobby is far stronger than the retail lobby. Stores are going to have to figure it out. One time I darted into a store to buy a couple of things (I think it was 99 Cents Only but can't be sure) and put them in my reusable bag while shopping, and an employee approached me and offered me a basket, saying something like "here, this will make it easier for you". I think that might be a good model for other stores to follow. If customers see employees do this a few times, it will train them to not engage in this practice. The key is to nip it in the bud before it becomes prevalent.
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

HCal wrote: April 30th, 2023, 11:25 pm
I doubt the article is much of an indication. Media likes to dramatize these things. All they have to do is find a few outspoken people who are upset about something, and then quote them in the article, making it sound like they represent the voice of the community. I really doubt very many people would switch stores because of something like this on "principle", because it makes no logical sense to drive to a less convenient store in order to avoid having to scan your receipt at a gate.

Back on topic, California's plastic bag ban isn't going anywhere. The environmental lobby is far stronger than the retail lobby. Stores are going to have to figure it out. One time I darted into a store to buy a couple of things (I think it was 99 Cents Only but can't be sure) and put them in my reusable bag while shopping, and an employee approached me and offered me a basket, saying something like "here, this will make it easier for you". I think that might be a good model for other stores to follow. If customers see employees do this a few times, it will train them to not engage in this practice. The key is to nip it in the bud before it becomes prevalent.
That ship sailed in 2016-2017. Many stores do not even have baskets anymore (again due to theft issues, and I see this everywhere, not just in CA) or do not consistently keep them present at the entries (letting them pile up at checkstands). The customer who walks in isn't going to go seek out a hand basket, they will just go shop into their reusable bag. Maybe these security guards who stand around near store entrances should do a better job with handing customers baskets if they see them go in with a reusable bag. That is one of the reasons so many people just shop into reusable bags is due to a lack of shopping baskets in many stores.

The bag ban can't go anywhere due to the referendum (this is also part of why they have not been able to try to ban the super thick bags and also why they have not been able to try to expand the ban to all retailers and it still only covers grocery/liquor selling retailers) but that doesn't mean it has to be enforced. Many laws on the books in many states are not enforced.

Recall this Safeway in question was a brand new store replacing a much older store right around the time of the Albertsons merger. Layout is cluttered/awkward and a loss prevention nightmare. It is probably the largest Safeway in a fairly significant radius. It is interesting that Oakland has a large late model Safeway like this, plus the newest FoodsCo location. The FoodsCo is in what is known to be a very challenging neighborhood but from what I can tell maybe they better planned their store for those conditions. It has a lot of but not all of drug/HBA locked up and practically all of liquor locked up during some/maybe all hours, but it has been like that for a while, and that is somewhat typical for the format. Entry/exit is forced through specific entry/exit doors as is typical for the format. The FoodsCo is very spacious which from a security perspective makes it easier to watch.
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by veteran+ »

"The next stupid thing California has done since Veteran wants us to focus on California specific rules"

Huh?

In fact quite the opposite.

There are a myriad of issues in other States regarding just about anything that can been fanatically followed and more interesting for discussion.

The bashing of California is getting so passe and boring.
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by BillyGr »

storewanderer wrote: April 30th, 2023, 6:21 pm
BillyGr wrote: April 30th, 2023, 4:58 pm

There is an easy answer that does NOT require anything difficult.
Simply post at every entry that NO ITEMS are allowed to be bagged UNTIL THEY ARE CHECKED OUT.

The only needed exception would be for prescriptions if the store has a pharmacy, but those the pharmacy can bag (and even staple the bag shut with the receipt attached if they wish, to be sure nothing else gets added to the bag).

That way, ANYONE putting ANY ITEMS in a bag can be stopped and checked at will (since they are not following the rules set by the store).

They can leave the bags (folded up/unopened) in the cart or even the bottom of the hand basket until they get to check out, then open them (so that it is easy to see that they are empty) and start filling them as items are rung up (by either cashier or customer).
The store can stop it if there are only a couple of customers in the store bagging items as they shop. The problem is at any given time there are dozens of customers bagging items as they shop. The store does not have dozens of security employees to go around and tell these customers to not bag items as they shop. Furthermore, I have observed multiple times when employees tell customers to stop bagging items as they shop, the customers ignore the employee, spit on the employee, or are otherwise disrespectful to the employee. Telling someone to not use reusable bags on the sales floor is not something a normal floor employee should be doing because it is a potential theft interaction. That is the type of interaction that needs to be done by loss prevention/management only and probably with a witness. You tell the shoplifter to not fill their reusable bags on the sales floor and they will pull a knife or gun on you as they bolt toward the exit with their partially filled reusable bags. Meanwhile since they get to the exit before loss prevention since they have a head start, there is no chance at a stop taking place.

Stores have done exactly as you state: they have posted signs stating not to use reusable bags until you have paid. Some have even played radio announcements telling customers to not use reusable bags while shopping. It doesn't matter. Customers do not listen. So many customers do not listen that they basically provide "cover" for the shoplifters to help them blend in.

The rule should probably be ANY customer with reusable bags MUST use a cart and said reusable bags (or backpack they bring in with them, duffle bag, whatever) MUST remain on the bottom rack of the shopping cart AT ALL TIMES. Period. Any deviation from that will be grounds for trespass.

But keep on pushing these reusable bags. They are terrible for the environment, worse than the thin plastic bags they replaced.
They don't NEED dozens of security - just like the police do not stop EVERY car that goes over the speed limit, they don't have to stop EVERY person who is putting items into a bag.

The idea is that people will be less likely to do things that are wrong IF they know there is a chance of being checked out, not that every single theft can be stopped, but to limit it as much as it can be.

If someone actually pulls a knife or gun, then the employee has every right to do whatever is needed, since they are then acting in SELF DEFENSE (they have been threatened) - if that means kicking them, punching them or whatever to subdue said threat to them. If they actually run, not so much, but if it was other employees telling them that, all they need is a radio and have the loss person already by the door - much like the police car radioing to another to stop xyz that just passed them.

Your rule is completely stupid - a bag folded in the bottom of a handheld basket has 0% chance of theft, as it is FOLDED FLAT AND NOTHING WILL GO INTO IT! Then it is opened ONLY when reaching checkout. Same for ones in the bottom of a cart (or one shelf of the smaller ones with two shelves) - it is very easy to see that it is folded, and will be opened at checkout and not before.

Also note that I am not pushing ANYTHING, simply that there is no reason that a customer should have to pay for bags they don't need or want when they already have ones that work fine. Also, not sure how they are worse for the environment, unless people fail to use them correctly (which is likely the bigger issue). They last quite long if people care for them right (remember, NY has been doing this since late 2020), so one of those may have replaced 200+ plastic bags over a couple years (as they hold a couple plastic bags worth each x 1 or 2 uses per week x 52 weeks/year) - and (at least in my case), NONE of them have been purchased since this ban began - they were things gotten over the years for free, either at stores or other offers - maybe one or two bought at a minimal cost (under 50 cents) as part of a promotion, thus they already existed and just sat unused until they were made a requirement.
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

veteran+ wrote: May 1st, 2023, 7:18 am "The next stupid thing California has done since Veteran wants us to focus on California specific rules"

Huh?

In fact quite the opposite.

There are a myriad of issues in other States regarding just about anything that can been fanatically followed and more interesting for discussion.

The bashing of California is getting so passe and boring.
Well, let's find the stores in other states that are doing these things. I am sure they exist but I cannot find any press coverage. Is there another store in some other state with the same exact combination of severe security measures being described at this Oakland Rockridge Safeway? I pointed out some things I've seen elsewhere outside CA, but nothing is as strict as how this store is described.

Is there another Whole Foods that has been closed due to the types of incidents reported in the NY Times article in that thread elsewhere? They had closure in Chicago something in the past few years in what was known to be a rough neighborhood but I do not recall seeing that closure was for safety reasons, it was simply for volume reasons (and it is being replaced by a Save a Lot subsidized by the city).

The reality is the situation is worse in northern California than other states/regions when it comes to "incidents" at retailer locations, specifically grocery/drug/mass merchandise stores. This is not to say it will not get worse in other states/regions as time goes on but the current problems appear to be very northern California-specific. Quick changes need to be made to stop this from spreading. I already think it is too late. If Target with its loss prevention program/technology can't solve these issues, no retailer can. But Target is still open there near Union Square... and has expanded its closing time up to 8 PM... so maybe they are making progress?
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by storewanderer »

BillyGr wrote: May 1st, 2023, 10:54 am

They don't NEED dozens of security - just like the police do not stop EVERY car that goes over the speed limit, they don't have to stop EVERY person who is putting items into a bag.

The idea is that people will be less likely to do things that are wrong IF they know there is a chance of being checked out, not that every single theft can be stopped, but to limit it as much as it can be.

If someone actually pulls a knife or gun, then the employee has every right to do whatever is needed, since they are then acting in SELF DEFENSE (they have been threatened) - if that means kicking them, punching them or whatever to subdue said threat to them. If they actually run, not so much, but if it was other employees telling them that, all they need is a radio and have the loss person already by the door - much like the police car radioing to another to stop xyz that just passed them.

Your rule is completely stupid - a bag folded in the bottom of a handheld basket has 0% chance of theft, as it is FOLDED FLAT AND NOTHING WILL GO INTO IT! Then it is opened ONLY when reaching checkout. Same for ones in the bottom of a cart (or one shelf of the smaller ones with two shelves) - it is very easy to see that it is folded, and will be opened at checkout and not before.

Also note that I am not pushing ANYTHING, simply that there is no reason that a customer should have to pay for bags they don't need or want when they already have ones that work fine. Also, not sure how they are worse for the environment, unless people fail to use them correctly (which is likely the bigger issue). They last quite long if people care for them right (remember, NY has been doing this since late 2020), so one of those may have replaced 200+ plastic bags over a couple years (as they hold a couple plastic bags worth each x 1 or 2 uses per week x 52 weeks/year) - and (at least in my case), NONE of them have been purchased since this ban began - they were things gotten over the years for free, either at stores or other offers - maybe one or two bought at a minimal cost (under 50 cents) as part of a promotion, thus they already existed and just sat unused until they were made a requirement.


The problem is the employee acting in self defense beyond being put into a situation they should not be put into (unless they are loss prevention/management) puts the store at risk for a lawsuit, the employee will almost certainly be fired, and also risks an incident occurring/escalating that may cause other innocent bystanders to get hurt. It is fine to approach the random customer who is walking around at a leisurely pace and has put a potato, a pack of sausages, a bottle of water, a carton of milk, and a frozen dinner into their reusable bag and tell them to stop, frankly this is little risk and you shouldn't even have to tell them to stop, the problem is when you show up over at the drug aisle and you approach the customer who you didn't even see walk in, but is quickly emptying the deodorant racks of every piece of whatever SKU they can get their hands on and you tell them to stop and they become violent...

The store cannot prove theft or have grounds to even make a stop unless they see the item concealed and have their eye on whatever or wherever the customer concealed the item from the time the item is concealed until the time they stop the customer at the curb outside. One blind camera or cluttered corner where the view is lost and the store cannot detain the customer because there is the possibility the customer ditched the concealed item during the few seconds they were out of camera view.

Folding the bag at the bottom of the hand basket should be fine. The problem with folding the reusable bag in the hand basket at the bottom is a customer trying to conceal items can easily go in a corner and stand in a way that blocks all camera view of the hand basket/inside of the basket/the bag. By requiring the reusable bags (or backpack, duffel bag, whatever) to be in the shopping cart bottom rack, those bags will be visible or at least partially visible at all times. There will be no way to hide those easily from view short of wrapping a sheet or towel or something around the entire shopping cart.

I would also say at this point the customer who hides a bottle of some spice in a reusable bag and doesn't pay for it isn't really that big of a problem compared to the high volume thieves, but when theft is out of control, you have to do whatever you can to discourage thefts big and small, and that is the situation at some of these big city stores now.
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Re: Safeway Oakland Rockridge- Security Measures

Post by BillyGr »

storewanderer wrote: May 1st, 2023, 4:27 pm The problem is the employee acting in self-defense beyond being put into a situation they should not be put into (unless they are loss prevention/management) puts the store at risk for a lawsuit, the employee will almost certainly be fired, and also risks an incident occurring/escalating that may cause other innocent bystanders to get hurt. It is fine to approach the random customer who is walking around at a leisurely pace and has put a potato, a pack of sausages, a bottle of water, a carton of milk, and a frozen dinner into their reusable bag and tell them to stop, frankly this is little risk and you shouldn't even have to tell them to stop, the problem is when you show up over at the drug aisle and you approach the customer who you didn't even see walk in, but is quickly emptying the deodorant racks of every piece of whatever SKU they can get their hands on and you tell them to stop and they become violent...

The store cannot prove theft or have grounds to even make a stop unless they see the item concealed and have their eye on whatever or wherever the customer concealed the item from the time the item is concealed until the time they stop the customer at the curb outside. One blind camera or cluttered corner where the view is lost and the store cannot detain the customer because there is the possibility the customer ditched the concealed item during the few seconds they were out of camera view.

Folding the bag at the bottom of the hand basket should be fine. The problem with folding the reusable bag in the hand basket at the bottom is a customer trying to conceal items can easily go in a corner and stand in a way that blocks all camera view of the hand basket/inside of the basket/the bag. By requiring the reusable bags (or backpack, duffel bag, whatever) to be in the shopping cart bottom rack, those bags will be visible or at least partially visible at all times. There will be no way to hide those easily from view short of wrapping a sheet or towel or something around the entire shopping cart.

I would also say at this point the customer who hides a bottle of some spice in a reusable bag and doesn't pay for it isn't really that big of a problem compared to the high volume thieves, but when theft is out of control, you have to do whatever you can to discourage thefts big and small, and that is the situation at some of these big city stores now.
If someone PULLS A GUN/KNIFE ON AN EMPLOYEE, THEY CAN NOT SUE THE STORE OR THE PERSON SINCE THEY (the customer/thief) CAUSED THE ISSUE, and not anyone who works for the store! Hopefully it wouldn't involve others, but if that happened, they would also charge/sue the one who caused the issue, not the store or employee (OK, they could TRY to do otherwise, but it would be thrown out for being an incorrect case).

If the store were to attempt to fire someone in that case, the EMPLOYEE would be the one that should sue the employer for falsely firing them (as they did NOTHING WRONG).

They do not need to see the items at all times - the fact that someone is RUNNING OUT OF THE STORE WITH A BAG OF MERCHANDISE without going through a checkout is proof enough, since there is no way that they paidfor the items they are carrying!!

If nothing else, they simply ask to see the receipt (as is done for anyone, even when they HAVE paid), when that is not produced (which it can not be, as they never paid), it is proven that they are stealing - just that simple!

As to the handbasket, if they were to do what you say, they are now back to having an OPEN BAG with items in it in the store, which is against the rule of not doing that, thus can be stopped for doing so.
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