Major Hardee's franchisee declares bankruptcy, closes 39 restaurants

[Groceteria]

Carl’s hasn’t been the same since Carl Karcher died.

Oh yeah, Karcher was a peach of a human being and a true role model

[veteran+]

Carl’s hasn’t been the same since Carl Karcher died.

Oh yeah, Karcher was a peach of a human being and a true role model

Thank you. I bit my tongue on that one.

[veteran+]

The most thrown out food item at In & Out are the fries.

Their dumpsters are loaded with them.

I predict this cult like following of In & Out will have it's reckoning. With a very stubborn narrow minded leader at the helm and expanding from it's home territory, there is doom in the future (cult followwing or not).

In N Out needs to do something about the fries and how many are being thrown away. Better to give a larger serving to the customer in my opinion. The problem is due to the nutrition labeling on the menu they need to follow portion size calories advertised or risk being sued by someone for being given 600 calories worth of fries instead of 380 calories worth of fries as the menu board promises. I know this is a stupid excuse and there are other solutions they could apply such as more precise measurements into the fryer so one fry basket equaled 6 portions of fries or something so the mixing of batches issue would not cause waste, for instance, because 100% of each batch would be served into 6 portions.

However I think as long as In N Out sticks to its core of strong operations, fair/value pricing, higher employee wages, simple menu, corporate ownership (no franchises), and tight supply chain control they will continue to be successful.

The unknown is in these new territories if they will do the sales volumes their CA/NV units do. But if the territories have lower operating costs, they may not need to do such high volumes. On the flip side we do not know if they own a lot of the CA sites so basically have low real estate costs due to decades of property ownership in which case some of the new territories may not be that much cheaper to operate in if they are leasing.

Any idea how much of In N Out's real estate is owned vs. leased? They own the real estate on their older Reno/only Sparks site but the site that just opened in Reno they appear to lease. Their older Reno site however they bought the real estate in 2015 and leased it before that.

I say all of the above as someone who thinks Steak N Shake puts out a better burger than In N Out too. I also like their fries better and obviously their shake is better. But In N Out is very solid and for the price it charges it is an excellent value and a reliable place to go buy food when you don't want any surprises/issues. I can't say that about any other burger chain. Any other burger chain I have no idea what I may be walking into when I go to a location. But at In N Out I can rely on consistent service, consistent fair/value pricing, consistent fresh food, strong iced tea, and overall satisfaction when I leave.

I stand with my prediction.

The fries: Employees cleaning up the dining room always find the fries untouched. All the employees joke about how bad the fires are.

The owner is inflexible and obdurate. Not the ingrediants for long term future success in other areas.

John 3:16 "for god so loved the world.................................." in the breakroom, not withstanding.

[buckguy]

The most thrown out food item at In & Out are the fries.

Their dumpsters are loaded with them.

I predict this cult like following of In & Out will have it's reckoning. With a very stubborn narrow minded leader at the helm and expanding from it's home territory, there is doom in the future (cult followwing or not).

In N Out needs to do something about the fries and how many are being thrown away. Better to give a larger serving to the customer in my opinion. The problem is due to the nutrition labeling on the menu they need to follow portion size calories advertised or risk being sued by someone for being given 600 calories worth of fries instead of 380 calories worth of fries as the menu board promises. I know this is a stupid excuse and there are other solutions they could apply such as more precise measurements into the fryer so one fry basket equaled 6 portions of fries or something so the mixing of batches issue would not cause waste, for instance, because 100% of each batch would be served into 6 portions.

However I think as long as In N Out sticks to its core of strong operations, fair/value pricing, higher employee wages, simple menu, corporate ownership (no franchises), and tight supply chain control they will continue to be successful.

The unknown is in these new territories if they will do the sales volumes their CA/NV units do. But if the territories have lower operating costs, they may not need to do such high volumes. On the flip side we do not know if they own a lot of the CA sites so basically have low real estate costs due to decades of property ownership in which case some of the new territories may not be that much cheaper to operate in if they are leasing.

Any idea how much of In N Out's real estate is owned vs. leased? They own the real estate on their older Reno/only Sparks site but the site that just opened in Reno they appear to lease. Their older Reno site however they bought the real estate in 2015 and leased it before that.

I say all of the above as someone who thinks Steak N Shake puts out a better burger than In N Out too. I also like their fries better and obviously their shake is better. But In N Out is very solid and for the price it charges it is an excellent value and a reliable place to go buy food when you don't want any surprises/issues. I can't say that about any other burger chain. Any other burger chain I have no idea what I may be walking into when I go to a location. But at In N Out I can rely on consistent service, consistent fair/value pricing, consistent fresh food, strong iced tea, and overall satisfaction when I leave.

I stand with my prediction.

The fries: Employees cleaning up the dining room always find the fries untouched. All the employees joke about how bad the fires are.

The owner is inflexible and obdurate. Not the ingrediants for long term future success in other areas.

John 3:16 "for god so loved the world.................................." in the breakroom, not withstanding.

It's not difficult to think of examples where relying on a founder's iron hand isn't a great long-term strategy, especially when chains of any sort try to implement ambitious expansions. Carl's Jr had problems with regional expansion before Karcher's death and even more so afterward. Once the founder steps down, whether it's family or professional managers, the next generation of management usually seems to screw-up the basic model or simply prove to be inept and not up to the challenge. In and Out has been an exception and new family memebrs have taken over and they seem to have been successful expanding into Texas which has its own regional favorites but moving Eastward with new distribution networks may be more difficult.

The chains that are expanding like In and Out and Culver's seem to be trading on quality, while those that are stagnating or declining sell forgettable stuff and have been stuck in cycles of discounting which often create problems in their relations with franchises. although there also are poorly managed franchises that can only generate volume with promotions. The rising price of fast food is probably making space for regionals to prosper and expand while the chains that have had problems for years like Hardees or Burger King may have reached a point where they can no longer tread water.

[veteran+]

Lynsi Snyder is the owner and boss of I&O, she calls all the shots.

She will not take suggestions and ideas!

[storewanderer]

Carl’s hasn’t been the same since Carl Karcher died.

Oh yeah, Karcher was a peach of a human being and a true role model

Thank you. I bit my tongue on that one.

I think Puzder did a fine job carrying on the spirit of Carl. Not commenting on if that was a good or bad spirit. But at least the food stayed sort of good.
But the people running the thing now have completely ruined it.

[storewanderer]

I stand with my prediction.

The fries: Employees cleaning up the dining room always find the fries untouched. All the employees joke about how bad the fires are.

The owner is inflexible and obdurate. Not the ingrediants for long term future success in other areas.

John 3:16 "for god so loved the world.................................." in the breakroom, not withstanding.

That is interesting as I do not see many customers throwing away fries at In N Out. Maybe the customers in CA/NV who have concluded the fries are lousy just don't order them, but it hasn't sunk in yet with customers in new territories? I talk to people who tell me they do not go to In N Out because they hate the fries and they want something with their burger but since In N Out has no acceptable options they don't go there. In N Out needs to consistently use the same potato type and also rinse the cut fries before cooking to get the starch off and that would radically improve/change the fries and lose the pasty texture. I commend their very simple "peel, cut, fry" process but it would be nice if they'd do the rinse thing to improve the fries and settle on the same potato type so they are consistent.

I can only eat the In N Out fries if they are well done and eat them basically within about 1 minute of receiving them. Otherwise they are no good. So in most cases when I go there I just do not order any fries. Steak N Shake fries (extreme skinny shoestring- totally plain fry type no weird coating etc.) have a similar problem but lasted 3-4 minutes after being made until they were not good.

But here is the thing with those In N Out fries: I know what I am getting into. And if I do order them, I get what I expect to get regardless of location/visit. I claim free fries every Friday at McDonalds via app offer at all different locations all over the place, and I usually get undercooked fries (last week watched them pull the over-filled fry basket they filled from the freezer by hand rather than using the auto dispenser out with 29 seconds left on the clock and serve without salting), one week recently I got fries that were undercooked in a fryer that was flashing "LOW TEMP" the whole time, once in a while I get overcooked ones which I like, but that is very rare, my favorite is mixed batches of undercooked/soggy/old/overcooked; once in a while I get fries that are made properly from them, but it is not often. They are actually more consistent at making iced tea than they are fries.

What I find most interesting about In N Out is the number of young people I see eating there in the evenings. Tons of teenagers, high school aged kids, college student aged, etc. This has been the customer I see at In N Out ever since I was in that demographic. The cheap prices, late hours, and reliable food draw customers from a young age and they remain customers for life. Then if you go in the daytime on a weekend you see tons of families eating there with grade school aged kids. If you watch who is going through drive through you see basically every demographic. Some of these other fast food chains like Wendys I tend to see a lot of older customers and not many young ones. McDonalds I feel like the only customers there are desperate for food and for whatever reason couldn't get any further so they stopped there, or sometimes broke families who go thinking it is cheap but after seeing the prices realize they just got duped.

[storewanderer]

Lynsi Snyder is the owner and boss of I&O, she calls all the shots.

She will not take suggestions and ideas!

This is interesting as my understanding has been while she is the leader of the company and ultimately approves all decisions, there are a few people directly under her who know the business inside and out, and they call all of the shots (it was the same situation before she obtained control of the company when the very elderly woman was running the company). I am curious who's idea this new territory expansion is as the previous model before Texas seemed to be to keep branching out one store at a time from the "most distant store" typically along interstate highways.

Essentially what I have heard is she knows this business is rock solid and prints cash and does not want to screw it up. I'd still love to figure out how much of their real estate the own in CA. My suspicion is they own the majority of the real estate their units in CA sit on. If that is actually the case, this is such a rock solid business that it will never go away.

Some of these new territories run the risk of screwing it up but I have high confidence in the operations people they have to get things right. They have some of the best people in the business running their operation. I also don't know how they legally structure the expansion territories. Like if the TX expansion goes bust could they bankrupt it and just fall back on the extremely profitable CA operation that is under a legally separate entity?

Another thing about In N Out is their customer service at the corporate office is excellent. Their 1-800 number is staffed by In N Out employees and it is open 8 AM to 1 AM. I think it is a very good idea for a retailer or restaurant to have their customer service hours mirror the hours of operation of the stores in order to ensure complaints that need immediate attention get immediate attention, but there are fewer and fewer retailers who do things like this. Albertsons for a while did this, Maverik used to (not anymore), but In N Out continues its commitment to excellence by taking immediate action on customer complaints.

[veteran+]

If you actually worked inside an I&O and are not a "cult" member, I believe you would have a different viewpoint.

They know they have a fries problem...........they do nothing.

They know they have an ordering problem (inside counter, drive through and tablet outside) and they do nothing.

They know they have a milk shake dispenser problem and they do nothing.

And that is just some of the problems they know about. BUT...........................if they are making bank, then it's okay.

I have seen this behavior in top notch companies before. There is usually a reckoning unless there is a strong intervention. That reckoning can take a long time.

Perhaps their cult following will give them long tenure and bountiful profits inspite of their stubborn 1950s operation stuck in cement.

Yes, their customer service is excellent!

[storewanderer]

If you actually worked inside an I&O and are not a "cult" member, I believe you would have a different viewpoint.

They know they have a fries problem...........they do nothing.

They know they have an ordering problem (inside counter, drive through and tablet outside) and they do nothing.

They know they have a milk shake dispenser problem and they do nothing.

And that is just some of the problems they know about. BUT...........................if they are making bank, then it's okay.

I have seen this behavior in top notch companies before. There is usually a reckoning unless there is a strong intervention. That reckoning can take a long time.

Perhaps their cult following will give them long tenure and bountiful profits inspite of their stubborn 1950s operation stuck in cement.

Yes, their customer service is excellent!

What do you think the specific issues with the In N Out ordering process are vs. the ordering process as competitors McDonalds, Burger King, Carls, or Jack in the Box? I find In N Out's ordering process to be the same or more efficient (depending on line length) as those competitors selling the same product. I know there are some system quirks that make modifying orders harder than it could/should be but that system is a standard restaurant software used by a lot of different chains all over the world like the IBM Supermarket Software you see so many grocers use and there are a lot of quirks to these softwares that aren't the most efficient and never change.

I took a look at the milkshake machine again in Reno. There are three separate nozzles/levers to pull. One nozzle/lever for each flavor. No rinsing or anything between cups dispensed. It sounds like newer units are getting different equipment. In that case I'd say they tried to change something and screwed up. They need to go back to the machine with a nozzle for each flavor. I am guessing it is a lot harder to clean the machine in Reno, but that shouldn't matter with the very high sales volume they do, they have the labor to do proper cleaning of a 3 nozzle shake machine.

I am torn on the fries. To get the fries changed would involve increased food processing and potentially additional ingredients (even chemicals) to get the fries consistent with other chains. And look at how many times over the years Burger King and Wendy's (I think Carl's has only done it once) have "relaunched" their fries promising them to be better, crispier, the best fry ever, etc., yet every time the same old inconsistencies as before continue long after the roll out of the new fries that were supposed to reinvent the fry (and the new fries always seem to be processed more, contain strange coatings, saltier, etc.). So my suspicion is In N Out could reinvent the fries and piss off the segment of customers who actually like the current fries. Also I think there is something about the potato being fresh cut in unit (visible from drive through and visible from front counter to customers) that emphasizes the "fresh" and "simple preparation" hallmarks of the chain.

I do think they should be consistent on the potato type and do the cold water rinse process after cutting/before frying (but you are supposed to hold them a while), they could also par-fry the fries (like Five Guys- but that place has very inconsistent fry quality too). I also do think they need to address fry waste- should be zero waste unless someone drops a container on the floor.

At this point I take the In N Out fries as a "clean" ingredient fry. At least as clean as you can get for a fry. It is a potato, oil, and salt. Period. Nothing else. I know there are dirty chemical label fries available basically everywhere else that are likely to taste much better. Also something else I will say is the oil always tastes clean on In N Out fries. I've never had them where they have a bad oil taste, old oil taste, etc.