Amazon Fresh, take 2

This is the place for general and miscellaneous posts on topics which might extend past the boundaries of any specific region. No non-grocery posts.
ClownLoach
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2982
Joined: April 4th, 2016, 10:55 pm
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 309 times
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by ClownLoach »

storewanderer wrote: November 16th, 2023, 10:24 pm
babs wrote: November 16th, 2023, 1:08 pm People expect low prices from Amazon. Something like a WinCo with some technology and increased selection should be their model going forward.
Their prices in Amazon Fresh are like, higher than Safeway.... and they hardly have any good specials except on very random items mostly near expiration (like a quasi clearance outlet type of store). Their selection is... very odd. I'd call it poor, but it isn't exactly poor (except for the stores with like half of their items in various categories out of stock, I would call that poor). Amazon Fresh is a total embarrassment and they need to shelve this concept now.

At a minimum they should take their name off the stores because having customers see a physical store with as many problems as this store has is not doing the consumer's image of Amazon any favors. Maybe they can let Nash Finish let them use the Econofoods banner and rebrand these terrible stores to Econofoods.
They can never move forward with in store pricing that is marked up 25% to reflect the high labor cost of deliveries. The 25% off coupon scheme doesn't fix it because customers in store see that the price is obviously marked up and the coupon takes it down to "only" pricing on the level of Safeway NorCal.

Amazon is proving that once again grocery delivery is too expensive and labor intensive, and it will remain a niche market for primarily rich customers who are not price sensitive. Nobody has been able to crack the code on the online grocery business despite having over 30 years of failed startups to autopsy.

They have to separate the delivery prices from the store price and squash the omnichannel aspect of this, which of course is the polar opposite of what they're trying to do. But they've spent nearly a billion dollars to rehash the same problem that only worsens every day. The labor cost of grocery delivery is too high and there's still no way to reduce it until robots are a dime a dozen, nor will in store customers tolerate attempts to pass along the expenses to them through prices higher than other grocery stores.

I don't see any viability to making a WinCo clone. WinCo is very shrewd and manages to acquire bargain sites that are massive usually by purchasing instead of leasing, then they drive a high value offering that delivers high perception of savings and very low labor so customers will go out of their way to shop them. They can't break even unless they do at least $100 million per year, per store. I doubt the 44 weak stores Amazon Fresh operates are even delivering a total of $100 million a year of in store shopper revenues. Obviously even with skeleton crews in place the labor as a percentage of sales is probably 5 to 10 times higher than WinCo as their store deleverage due to lack of sales.

Let's say that Amazon was somehow able to acquire WinCo size stores and merchandise and price them accordingly so they suddenly do WinCo sales volume in a comparable low labor model (no service perimeter except basic deli and seafood, bag your own groceries, low frills case pack stocking, and lower SKU count to reduce labor expense). Even if it did $100 million a year like a "slow" WinCo the addition of technology expenses alone would render it a money loser, and adding services like online ordering would now cause the store to turn into a financial bloodbath that burns through incredible amounts of cash. Maybe if it suddenly could do $200 million it could work, but the average Costco delivers $200 million and they already have said they can't afford to do curbside pickup type services under their current labor model without substantial price increases chain wide or conversion to mostly self checkout (like Sam's). And adding SKUs would just make it even less profitable because of the extra labor involved, there is a cost to adding every single SKU to the shelf and that's why low SKU count retailers like Trader Joe's, Aldi, Costco and Sam's are so successful. So exactly how would Amazon who couldn't get people to buy a Coke at a convenience store suddenly find a way to create their own WinCo with a higher SKU count that would have to be twice as successful just to break even if they wanted to offer any services at all related to high labor expense online shopping? It's not feasible.

Amazon has not been a low price leader in anything for years and I do not agree that customers expect anything from them other than convenience, the days of buying a TV through Amazon for hundreds of dollars less than the identical model at Costco have been over for at least a decade.

In many cases Amazon has been the death of local specialty stores as well from their activities back when their prices were still affordable, like for example aquarium supply stores which depended on profitable accessories like food, equipment and chemicals to stay open and offset risky livestock losses. Amazon put the same chemicals, lights, parts etc online at cheaper prices than these retailers could sell at, put them out of business, and now just like Walmart they've raised the online price higher than the closed B&M specialist sold those items for. There is nothing cheap about Amazon.
Brian Lutz
Store Manager
Store Manager
Posts: 1442
Joined: March 1st, 2009, 5:51 pm
Location: Piedmont Triad, NC
Been thanked: 58 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by Brian Lutz »

babs wrote: November 16th, 2023, 1:08 pm People expect low prices from Amazon. Something like a WinCo with some technology and increased selection should be their model going forward.
I'd agree, but the people making the decisions here are most likely living in some $1.5 million house in Seattle that they paid cash for from their stock grants on a $300k+ salary with plenty of money to shop at places like Whole Foods and PCC, and probably assume that everyone shops the same way they do. I'd be willing to bet most of them have never set foot in a WinCo (the closest one to Seattle would be up in Edmonds, which is basically "flyover country" to them) and have no idea such a store even exists beyond possibly some market research report that landed on their desk.
ClownLoach
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2982
Joined: April 4th, 2016, 10:55 pm
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 309 times
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by ClownLoach »

Brian Lutz wrote: November 18th, 2023, 5:23 pm
babs wrote: November 16th, 2023, 1:08 pm People expect low prices from Amazon. Something like a WinCo with some technology and increased selection should be their model going forward.
I'd agree, but the people making the decisions here are most likely living in some $1.5 million house in Seattle that they paid cash for from their stock grants on a $300k+ salary with plenty of money to shop at places like Whole Foods and PCC, and probably assume that everyone shops the same way they do. I'd be willing to bet most of them have never set foot in a WinCo (the closest one to Seattle would be up in Edmonds, which is basically "flyover country" to them) and have no idea such a store even exists beyond possibly some market research report that landed on their desk.
It sounds nice but isn't close to reality of what happened. They hired a crap ton of Target and to a lesser extent Walmart people at "spare no expense" wage to launch Fresh. Where they went wrong is then they hired Tesco people for the Executives and went internal for IT and were surprised by the wild disconnects and cultural clashes. I'm not even sure if the Tesco leaders ever relocated to the US, remember that they opened Fresh stores in the EU as well and they failed even faster than here.

Now it appears they might have let the Tesco people in charge go and replaced them with Woolworth-Australia people, and the massive layoffs in the retail divisions were the literally tens of thousands of people recruited from Target and Walmart (more Target than Walmart). Target ETLs (Assistant Managers) who were making $60-$75K were brought in at minimum $100K, and some became Store Managers for light years beyond that. These stores were running absurd and preposterous levels of payroll with the expectation that it was a startup cost and it would only take about 6 months for these little Fresh stores to completely shut down the competing Fred Meyer, Safeway, Albertsons etc. around them as if they could squeeze a million a day out of each of these puny little stores.

Pure insanity and nonsense from the same "visionary leaders" that brought us Fresh and Easy who was supposed to do the same thing, I'm sure on their timeline they probably expected to have 50,000 stores open by now. All of these people who were promised they were joining Amazon, the future of retail where they have unlimited money and growth opportunities found themselves unemployed in less than two years and have the foul stain of Fresh on their Resume.

I also find it interesting that there was apparently almost zero transfer of people from Whole Foods to Fresh, meaning that even though they supposedly had full access to the WFM playbook and they even planned for nearby WFM stores to serve as a commissary for each Fresh store deli, bakery and prepared foods. The WFM people stayed as far away from the Fresh side as possible, indicating they knew it was going to be a train wreck.
Romr123
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 701
Joined: February 1st, 2021, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 56 times
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by Romr123 »

Your last statement says it all. WFM is more-than-minimally competent at running a store, and that they needed to absent themselves from the trainwreck is so very telling. As you've stated, this is an Amazon Tech endeavor, and they recruited the best translators-of-retail-tech-to-a-retail-floor that they could source easily (those Target assistant managers you mention) and the technology became a (literal) lead balloon as they huffed their org's own farts.
veteran+
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2290
Joined: January 3rd, 2015, 7:53 am
Has thanked: 1360 times
Been thanked: 79 times
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by veteran+ »

ClownLoach wrote: November 18th, 2023, 8:27 pm
Brian Lutz wrote: November 18th, 2023, 5:23 pm
babs wrote: November 16th, 2023, 1:08 pm People expect low prices from Amazon. Something like a WinCo with some technology and increased selection should be their model going forward.
I'd agree, but the people making the decisions here are most likely living in some $1.5 million house in Seattle that they paid cash for from their stock grants on a $300k+ salary with plenty of money to shop at places like Whole Foods and PCC, and probably assume that everyone shops the same way they do. I'd be willing to bet most of them have never set foot in a WinCo (the closest one to Seattle would be up in Edmonds, which is basically "flyover country" to them) and have no idea such a store even exists beyond possibly some market research report that landed on their desk.
It sounds nice but isn't close to reality of what happened. They hired a crap ton of Target and to a lesser extent Walmart people at "spare no expense" wage to launch Fresh. Where they went wrong is then they hired Tesco people for the Executives and went internal for IT and were surprised by the wild disconnects and cultural clashes. I'm not even sure if the Tesco leaders ever relocated to the US, remember that they opened Fresh stores in the EU as well and they failed even faster than here.

Now it appears they might have let the Tesco people in charge go and replaced them with Woolworth-Australia people, and the massive layoffs in the retail divisions were the literally tens of thousands of people recruited from Target and Walmart (more Target than Walmart). Target ETLs (Assistant Managers) who were making $60-$75K were brought in at minimum $100K, and some became Store Managers for light years beyond that. These stores were running absurd and preposterous levels of payroll with the expectation that it was a startup cost and it would only take about 6 months for these little Fresh stores to completely shut down the competing Fred Meyer, Safeway, Albertsons etc. around them as if they could squeeze a million a day out of each of these puny little stores.

Pure insanity and nonsense from the same "visionary leaders" that brought us Fresh and Easy who was supposed to do the same thing, I'm sure on their timeline they probably expected to have 50,000 stores open by now. All of these people who were promised they were joining Amazon, the future of retail where they have unlimited money and growth opportunities found themselves unemployed in less than two years and have the foul stain of Fresh on their Resume.

I also find it interesting that there was apparently almost zero transfer of people from Whole Foods to Fresh, meaning that even though they supposedly had full access to the WFM playbook and they even planned for nearby WFM stores to serve as a commissary for each Fresh store deli, bakery and prepared foods. The WFM people stayed as far away from the Fresh side as possible, indicating they knew it was going to be a train wreck.
I should write a book someday of what it was like to work with Tesco people.

I have dealt with "BIG" corporate personalities all my retail career but nothing compared to the experience with Tesco.

Supercilious hubris seems inadequate to describe.
Romr123
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 701
Joined: February 1st, 2021, 4:26 pm
Has thanked: 40 times
Been thanked: 56 times
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by Romr123 »

somewhat akin to Target Canada....
HCal
Assistant Store Manager
Assistant Store Manager
Posts: 635
Joined: February 1st, 2021, 11:18 pm
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 71 times
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by HCal »

veteran+ wrote: November 19th, 2023, 8:37 am I should write a book someday of what it was like to work with Tesco people.

I have dealt with "BIG" corporate personalities all my retail career but nothing compared to the experience with Tesco.

Supercilious hubris seems inadequate to describe.
I'd love to read that book! I remember reading an article somewhere about the demise of Fresh & Easy, and one of the things that stood out was that the executives were arrogant with suppliers and other business partners, acting as if they controlled market share similar to Tesco in the UK.

But back on topic, my credit card currently has a 15% cashback offer for Amazon Fresh in-store. Never seen anything like that for a supermarket (even 5% is rare) and it's definitely not a good sign.
storewanderer
Posts: 14713
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 328 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by storewanderer »

HCal wrote: November 19th, 2023, 4:57 pm
veteran+ wrote: November 19th, 2023, 8:37 am I should write a book someday of what it was like to work with Tesco people.

I have dealt with "BIG" corporate personalities all my retail career but nothing compared to the experience with Tesco.

Supercilious hubris seems inadequate to describe.
I'd love to read that book! I remember reading an article somewhere about the demise of Fresh & Easy, and one of the things that stood out was that the executives were arrogant with suppliers and other business partners, acting as if they controlled market share similar to Tesco in the UK.

But back on topic, my credit card currently has a 15% cashback offer for Amazon Fresh in-store. Never seen anything like that for a supermarket (even 5% is rare) and it's definitely not a good sign.
I've had 10% back at Raleys multiple times but that was a couple years ago, and more recently have been getting a lot of 5-10% back at Smiths.

Also have had multiple 5-20% back at CVS (repeatedly) and Walgreens (once or twice).
ClownLoach
Valued Contributor
Valued Contributor
Posts: 2982
Joined: April 4th, 2016, 10:55 pm
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 309 times
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by ClownLoach »

In an absolutely baffling development, after all new Amazon Fresh store development was basically halted last year, a completely new project was started earlier this year in Fountain Valley, CA at a former Office Depot building. The Office Depot closed down in Fall 2022 and is only 25,000 sq ft. I just found out that it is Amazon Fresh because the city posted on their website the generic facade diagram with the standard Amazon Fresh dark gray and neon green with "GROCERY" signage along with construction progress pictures. This site has been under active construction for all of 2023. I have no idea why Amazon would start up here when they have been sitting on dozens of mothballed sites that are already completely built. No construction was underway until after New Years, so this would also have been started once Amazon was already filing frivolous lawsuits to reject leases on fully completed sites and doing other things to piss off both landlords and the municipalities who are stuck with these ugly, vacant stores. I am completely shocked that they were allowed to even start construction.

What is even more incredible about this is that a couple of miles South is a site that contained what might be one of the last newly built from scratch Ralphs stores in California at Brookhurst and Adams. This store did not even make it ten years despite being at what is on paper one of the 5 busiest intersections in Orange County. Many retailers have fallen into the transaction trap when leasing here; there are older very successful Target, Stater Bros, Sprouts and Kohls at the intersection. New stores don't survive because of greedy landlords who charge high rent due to the traffic. The issue is that 90% of the traffic is bypassing I-405 and its world renowned traffic, which means that not only are those cars not stopping to shop but also the roads are so congested that all the locals avoid them whenever possible. So once Ralphs threw in the towel on this beautiful store, it was weirdly split and reconstructed as an Ulta Beauty and a Orchard Supply Hardware. OSH performed the single weirdest construction job I have ever seen and converted a third of their suite to open air for the nursery without removing the roof. They cut a few giant holes for sunlight, left the HVAC on the roof intact over the nursery, and built giant exterior heavily insulated HVAC ducts that hung over the garden center and then went into holes cut in the new side wall of the store to cool it. So OSH goes under, and Whole Foods took over the space, unconstructed the garden center fiasco and put the space back into a single box at the cost of likely millions of dollars, and has been open for a couple years now but nobody shows up to shop. This is the single deadest supermarket I've ever seen, it makes Fresh & Easy and the slowest Amazon Fresh look like Costco day before Thanksgiving. Whole Foods has to be losing thousands of dollars every single day on this abysmal failure of a store. They put out near zero fresh perimeter because it all goes to waste. Guaranteed it will close at the end of its first lease term. So why in the world would Amazon have such poor internal communication that they would lease another location just up the street from this flop for an Amazon Fresh, and begin construction after they have already pretty much scrapped the concept?

This is just one of the most bizarre turns I've seen them take yet, and shows how completely inept the Fresh leadership team is.


Also, I should mention that quite a ways back I posted that I saw a site going up on the border of Los Alamitos and Cypress that appeared to be Amazon Fresh. It looked just like one from a distance as I drove by, and the site is set back far from the street. Apparently it was in earlier stages of construction than I thought at the time (pre-plaster black wrap, which ironically looks like a finished Fresh store from a distance), and it turned out to be a Trader Joe's. Really poorly situated store but I think they decided to get in before the inevitable redevelopment of the Los Alamitos Race Course. Much of that racetrack parking has already been developed over the years including the Cypress Costco, but as horse racing continues to decline on the site there is no further need for thousands and thousands of parking spaces so there are new shopping centers, condos, apartments, hotels and even a mega-church going up around the perimeter of the racetrack. Eventually you won't be able to see the racetrack from Katella street, and the city already has a master plan for site reuse once they decide someday to "call it quits" on horse racing.
storewanderer
Posts: 14713
Joined: February 23rd, 2009, 3:54 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 328 times
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Amazon Fresh, take 2

Post by storewanderer »

Let's just let Amazon keep f---ing around with this format and continuing to bring down Whole Foods (I feel like they've brought it down a couple full steps in the past year). Or maybe Whole Foods is just going way downhill since John Mackey retired which was over a year ago now.
Post Reply