I'm not sure. Office Depot also uses those same old IBM terminals that Sears/Kmart use. That is just what I've heard about what happens to the equipment when Sears/Kmart close stores and the reason for it.
The terminals Sears uses are a couple years newer than the Kmart terminals and have somewhat larger screen and a slightly different keyboard. The Kmart terminal is identical to the Office Depot terminal.
IBM 4690 software and related hardware has been around since the 70s and was sold to Toshiba over ten years ago. The hardware is all similar and still more or less produced by Toshiba.
Toshiba is phasing the software out finally and trying to migrate 4690 customers to a new system called Elera. There are many options online to buy salvaged parts though.
You all know what I mean, older than dirt IBM software. All these different versions at the root are the same software kernel that dates to the 1970s. In newer versions from Toshiba they have removed the dates from the copyright lines so that the average user doesn't see they're using a system older than they are.
It looks like Toshiba is pushing to finally send all these 4XXX systems to the grave, with completely modern software that can still connect to AS/400.
ClownLoach wrote: ↑March 30th, 2024, 6:11 pm
You all know what I mean, older than dirt IBM software. All these different versions at the root are the same software kernel that dates to the 1970s. In newer versions from Toshiba they have removed the dates from the copyright lines so that the average user doesn't see they're using a system older than they are.
It looks like Toshiba is pushing to finally send all these 4XXX systems to the grave, with completely modern software that can still connect to AS/400.
I figured as much. But I frequently see other Kmart/Sears discussions where people say "They haven't updated the registers since the 1980s" which is not the case. Kmart didn't even have scanning in most areas until the late 80s-early 90s, and at Kmart in particular, until the early 2000s, early scanning equipment could have been various models of IBM, NCR, or Fujitsu registers, depending on location. Sears was a little more uniform with that, and after Sears & Kmart became one company, went to IBM. I knew about the software, just wanted to clarify about the actual POS equipment. Yes, what is in use now is pretty old as far as electronics go, but variations are still in use by many retailers, which is why I asked about parts availability.
ClownLoach wrote: ↑March 30th, 2024, 6:11 pm
You all know what I mean, older than dirt IBM software. All these different versions at the root are the same software kernel that dates to the 1970s. In newer versions from Toshiba they have removed the dates from the copyright lines so that the average user doesn't see they're using a system older than they are.
It looks like Toshiba is pushing to finally send all these 4XXX systems to the grave, with completely modern software that can still connect to AS/400.
I figured as much. But I frequently see other Kmart/Sears discussions where people say "They haven't updated the registers since the 1980s" which is not the case. Kmart didn't even have scanning in most areas until the late 80s-early 90s, and at Kmart in particular, until the early 2000s, early scanning equipment could have been various models of IBM, NCR, or Fujitsu registers, depending on location. Sears was a little more uniform with that, and after Sears & Kmart became one company, went to IBM. I knew about the software, just wanted to clarify about the actual POS equipment. Yes, what is in use now is pretty old as far as electronics go, but variations are still in use by many retailers, which is why I asked about parts availability.
They're definitely upgraded, similar hardware that is still in use, the touchscreen addition and sometimes GUI that IBM created and so forth. Fun fact, most of the 80s and 90s units had pretty much melted down by 2010. Literally... The capacitors would explode and melt on the boards after decades of use, I had to work with some of the 80s and 90s units that got the touchscreen GUI added and at least once a week a register would die with a puff of smoke. I'm sure very few are in use. But the underlying software is still derived from the original and until Toshiba redesigned the housing one could swap out an original unit with a much newer one and keep the same cash tray, keyboard etc. and it would look like nothing had been upgraded. The 4XXX derivatives are still running Walmart, CVS, most Kroger stores and others all over. There was also a failed attempt by IBM to make a complete replacement POS software in the late 2000s, the only places I saw it were Gap Inc, Big Lots, and I know it contributed to Circuit City going bankrupt as they had installed all the infrastructure and servers nationwide but never got it to mesh with their platforms and only a couple dozen stores got it. It was so problematic that the final generation of CC stores to open were put together with their original in house green screen system. I am unsure if any of those retailers still use the same "all new" software, I think Gap Inc. finally pulled it and I haven't been to Big Lots in a while. It looks like Toshiba is trying to make the same push to eliminate the 4XXX series and sell a end to end replacement software that works as a "easy upgrade" that won't have the hiccups these other companies went through. As far as Sears and ODP go, they appeared to be using the IBM hardware but some other software POS which is pretty common.
ClownLoach wrote: ↑March 30th, 2024, 6:11 pm
You all know what I mean, older than dirt IBM software. All these different versions at the root are the same software kernel that dates to the 1970s. In newer versions from Toshiba they have removed the dates from the copyright lines so that the average user doesn't see they're using a system older than they are.
It looks like Toshiba is pushing to finally send all these 4XXX systems to the grave, with completely modern software that can still connect to AS/400.
I figured as much. But I frequently see other Kmart/Sears discussions where people say "They haven't updated the registers since the 1980s" which is not the case. Kmart didn't even have scanning in most areas until the late 80s-early 90s, and at Kmart in particular, until the early 2000s, early scanning equipment could have been various models of IBM, NCR, or Fujitsu registers, depending on location. Sears was a little more uniform with that, and after Sears & Kmart became one company, went to IBM. I knew about the software, just wanted to clarify about the actual POS equipment. Yes, what is in use now is pretty old as far as electronics go, but variations are still in use by many retailers, which is why I asked about parts availability.
They're definitely upgraded, similar hardware that is still in use, the touchscreen addition and sometimes GUI that IBM created and so forth. Fun fact, most of the 80s and 90s units had pretty much melted down by 2010. Literally... The capacitors would explode and melt on the boards after decades of use, I had to work with some of the 80s and 90s units that got the touchscreen GUI added and at least once a week a register would die with a puff of smoke. I'm sure very few are in use. But the underlying software is still derived from the original and until Toshiba redesigned the housing one could swap out an original unit with a much newer one and keep the same cash tray, keyboard etc. and it would look like nothing had been upgraded. The 4XXX derivatives are still running Walmart, CVS, most Kroger stores and others all over. There was also a failed attempt by IBM to make a complete replacement POS software in the late 2000s, the only places I saw it were Gap Inc, Big Lots, and I know it contributed to Circuit City going bankrupt as they had installed all the infrastructure and servers nationwide but never got it to mesh with their platforms and only a couple dozen stores got it. It was so problematic that the final generation of CC stores to open were put together with their original in house green screen system. I am unsure if any of those retailers still use the same "all new" software, I think Gap Inc. finally pulled it and I haven't been to Big Lots in a while. It looks like Toshiba is trying to make the same push to eliminate the 4XXX series and sell a end to end replacement software that works as a "easy upgrade" that won't have the hiccups these other companies went through. As far as Sears and ODP go, they appeared to be using the IBM hardware but some other software POS which is pretty common.
Big Lots pulled IBM and went to NCR around 2015-2016. I went to Big Lots yesterday and they have new NCR equipment now also. Small little pinpads now which function only as a pinpad (no more loyalty card entry or showing items as they scan) and a larger screen beside it to show items as they scan and get you to press if you want a receipt yes or no. It also looks like the cashier's screen is smaller than it was before. The receipt looks exactly the same as before.
There are some Wal Marts with very old IBM equipment on their front ends. The equipment is 20+ years old. The equipment also seems to work just fine. Old keyboards, little two line green screens, printers look to have been replaced. There are also groups of grocery stores still using this equipment; quite a few down in Houston, TX; many AWG customers throughout the Midwest. Toshiba has been trying hard to get these places to upgrade to the touchscreen equipment but it is a long process. It sounds like they finally convinced Costco to upgrade. Walgreens POS was a lot more efficient back when they had this equipment. Their current system is horrendous. It tries to integrate everything but it is really slow sometimes.
Kmart uses a somewhat custom version of IBM 4xxx to this day of the Supermarket Software. I am surprised it still works. It actually was able to process Chip cards surprisingly quickly. Sears was using a different software of its own that integrated in various functions like deliveries and credit card applications but up until around 2017 it was a DOS looking system, then they upgraded the thing to a touchscreen type interface for the employees (ironic as they were closing so many stores). That upgrade may have occurred at the same time they got it to process Chip cards (the Sears system also processed Chip cards quite fast). Sears and Kmart both were using Equinox pinpads maybe that is part of why it processed the cards fast on what were slow outdated systems.
Last edited by storewanderer on March 31st, 2024, 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I figured as much. But I frequently see other Kmart/Sears discussions where people say "They haven't updated the registers since the 1980s" which is not the case. Kmart didn't even have scanning in most areas until the late 80s-early 90s, and at Kmart in particular, until the early 2000s, early scanning equipment could have been various models of IBM, NCR, or Fujitsu registers, depending on location. Sears was a little more uniform with that, and after Sears & Kmart became one company, went to IBM. I knew about the software, just wanted to clarify about the actual POS equipment. Yes, what is in use now is pretty old as far as electronics go, but variations are still in use by many retailers, which is why I asked about parts availability.
They're definitely upgraded, similar hardware that is still in use, the touchscreen addition and sometimes GUI that IBM created and so forth. Fun fact, most of the 80s and 90s units had pretty much melted down by 2010. Literally... The capacitors would explode and melt on the boards after decades of use, I had to work with some of the 80s and 90s units that got the touchscreen GUI added and at least once a week a register would die with a puff of smoke. I'm sure very few are in use. But the underlying software is still derived from the original and until Toshiba redesigned the housing one could swap out an original unit with a much newer one and keep the same cash tray, keyboard etc. and it would look like nothing had been upgraded. The 4XXX derivatives are still running Walmart, CVS, most Kroger stores and others all over. There was also a failed attempt by IBM to make a complete replacement POS software in the late 2000s, the only places I saw it were Gap Inc, Big Lots, and I know it contributed to Circuit City going bankrupt as they had installed all the infrastructure and servers nationwide but never got it to mesh with their platforms and only a couple dozen stores got it. It was so problematic that the final generation of CC stores to open were put together with their original in house green screen system. I am unsure if any of those retailers still use the same "all new" software, I think Gap Inc. finally pulled it and I haven't been to Big Lots in a while. It looks like Toshiba is trying to make the same push to eliminate the 4XXX series and sell a end to end replacement software that works as a "easy upgrade" that won't have the hiccups these other companies went through. As far as Sears and ODP go, they appeared to be using the IBM hardware but some other software POS which is pretty common.
Big Lots pulled IBM and went to NCR around 2015-2016. I went to Big Lots yesterday and they have new NCR equipment now also. Small little pinpads now which function only as a pinpad (no more loyalty card entry or showing items as they scan) and a larger screen beside it to show items as they scan and get you to press if you want a receipt yes or no. It also looks like the cashier's screen is smaller than it was before. The receipt looks exactly the same as before.
There are some Wal Marts with very old IBM equipment on their front ends. The equipment is 20+ years old. The equipment also seems to work just fine. Old keyboards, little two line green screens, printers look to have been replaced. There are also groups of grocery store still using this equipment; quite a few down in Houston, TX; many AWG customers throughout the Midwest. Toshiba has been trying hard to get these places to upgrade to the touchscreen equipment but it is a long process. It sounds like they finally convinced Costco to upgrade. Walgreens POS was a lot more efficient back when they had this equipment. Their current system is horrendous. It tries to integrate everything but it is really slow sometimes.
Whatever Costco is experimenting with at their service desks is a proprietary GUI and not this new Toshiba system. The issue with most of the GUI systems like Walmart and CVS use is that they're basically Java applications that just automate all the weird numeric menus and keystrokes that the 4XXX OS requires. So they make it a little more user friendly than the two line green screen version but underneath it all is the same 1970s and 1980s era software as can be found on the "controller" unit.
That new IBM software from the late 2000s might have been called IBM rPOS as that was what Circuit City referred to it as, they never got around to giving it their own nickname because it never worked as promised by IBM. It was so bad that they wound up having to take the few test stores off centralized delivery and have them rent trucks and deliver by themselves until they reverted back to their proprietary 1980s system that ran something other than DOS. That ancient system integrated every function in the store and was the perfect omnichannel application, able to maintain flawless real time inventory and sell anything out of any location in seconds. It was text based with hundreds of numeric functions and dozens of menus that had to be memorized. Trying to modernize helped lead them to bankruptcy.
I think Gap Inc has also pulled it. The interface was a distinctive navy blue and gold wherever it was used. I'm pretty sure it is dead at this point in time as I only saw it at Big Lots and Gap, and I doubt any retailer adopted it after maybe 2012 or so.
Whatever Costco is experimenting with at their service desks is a proprietary GUI and not this new Toshiba system. The issue with most of the GUI systems like Walmart and CVS use is that they're basically Java applications that just automate all the weird numeric menus and keystrokes that the 4XXX OS requires. So they make it a little more user friendly than the two line green screen version but underneath it all is the same 1970s and 1980s era software as can be found on the "controller" unit.
Kroger was pretty slow to move to the touchscreen version of the Toshiba but they eventually did maybe 3 years ago at Smiths (King Soopers was using it already quite a few years ago). Toshiba has been very aggressively pushing grocery chains to that system. I think they lost Grocery Outlet and Food Lion over trying to push them to that system. It seems like it is slower and also more difficult for them to process things like refunds, price changes, etc. on the touchscreen system.
Whole Foods and Holiday/Sav-Mor in NorCal both had Toshiba Touchscreen and ripped it out. Holiday I have no clue what system they are using currently, they are still using all the Toshiba hardware. https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/holiday ... gakdE_Meiw
I have never seen this system anywhere else. The self checkout interface this system has (which is being run on Toshiba hardware at some locations and some different hardware at other locations), I have never seen anywhere else either. This system is very fast. I had an overcharge there where I scanned an item twice and noticed after paying and the employee took me back to the self checkout, did something to log in (think it may have been fingerprint), scanned my receipt, which pulled up the transaction, and issued me a refund for the double scanned item in about 20 seconds.
Whatever Costco is experimenting with at their service desks is a proprietary GUI and not this new Toshiba system. The issue with most of the GUI systems like Walmart and CVS use is that they're basically Java applications that just automate all the weird numeric menus and keystrokes that the 4XXX OS requires. So they make it a little more user friendly than the two line green screen version but underneath it all is the same 1970s and 1980s era software as can be found on the "controller" unit.
Kroger was pretty slow to move to the touchscreen version of the Toshiba but they eventually did maybe 3 years ago at Smiths (King Soopers was using it already quite a few years ago). Toshiba has been very aggressively pushing grocery chains to that system. I think they lost Grocery Outlet and Food Lion over trying to push them to that system. It seems like it is slower and also more difficult for them to process things like refunds, price changes, etc. on the touchscreen system.
Whole Foods and Holiday/Sav-Mor in NorCal both had Toshiba Touchscreen and ripped it out. Holiday I have no clue what system they are using currently, they are still using all the Toshiba hardware. https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/holiday ... gakdE_Meiw
I have never seen this system anywhere else. The self checkout interface this system has (which is being run on Toshiba hardware at some locations and some different hardware at other locations), I have never seen anywhere else either. This system is very fast. I had an overcharge there where I scanned an item twice and noticed after paying and the employee took me back to the self checkout, did something to log in (think it may have been fingerprint), scanned my receipt, which pulled up the transaction, and issued me a refund for the double scanned item in about 20 seconds.
This is the new Elera software Toshiba is pushing hard. I haven't seen it in any store yet... They want this to replace all those old IBM solutions. I believe it will run on other hardware.
Whole Foods had a hodgepodge of different systems until they rolled out a new unified system about the same time Amazon took over. It is unrelated to the Amazon takeover and that's why Fresh got a completely different register system, although I believe they are switching those to the WFM registers in the remodels where traditional self checkout is installed. WFM historically usually kept whatever was in the store on acquired locations, I know the old Wild Oats stores kept the same system until the unified rollout. A new build store opened across the street from my former apartment and had Toshiba with Epson two sided receipt printers, only to have every single piece of hardware in the store removed and replaced with the unified system two months after the grand opening. I remember a store in Monterey that had the two line green screen IBM registers and they had a sticker on every one with the name of a very local sounding company like "Monterey Bay Cash Register Co."
Whatever Costco is experimenting with at their service desks is a proprietary GUI and not this new Toshiba system. The issue with most of the GUI systems like Walmart and CVS use is that they're basically Java applications that just automate all the weird numeric menus and keystrokes that the 4XXX OS requires. So they make it a little more user friendly than the two line green screen version but underneath it all is the same 1970s and 1980s era software as can be found on the "controller" unit.
Kroger was pretty slow to move to the touchscreen version of the Toshiba but they eventually did maybe 3 years ago at Smiths (King Soopers was using it already quite a few years ago). Toshiba has been very aggressively pushing grocery chains to that system. I think they lost Grocery Outlet and Food Lion over trying to push them to that system. It seems like it is slower and also more difficult for them to process things like refunds, price changes, etc. on the touchscreen system.
Whole Foods and Holiday/Sav-Mor in NorCal both had Toshiba Touchscreen and ripped it out. Holiday I have no clue what system they are using currently, they are still using all the Toshiba hardware. https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/holiday ... gakdE_Meiw
I have never seen this system anywhere else. The self checkout interface this system has (which is being run on Toshiba hardware at some locations and some different hardware at other locations), I have never seen anywhere else either. This system is very fast. I had an overcharge there where I scanned an item twice and noticed after paying and the employee took me back to the self checkout, did something to log in (think it may have been fingerprint), scanned my receipt, which pulled up the transaction, and issued me a refund for the double scanned item in about 20 seconds.
This is the new Elera software Toshiba is pushing hard. I haven't seen it in any store yet... They want this to replace all those old IBM solutions. I believe it will run on other hardware.
Whole Foods had a hodgepodge of different systems until they rolled out a new unified system about the same time Amazon took over. It is unrelated to the Amazon takeover and that's why Fresh got a completely different register system, although I believe they are switching those to the WFM registers in the remodels where traditional self checkout is installed. WFM historically usually kept whatever was in the store on acquired locations, I know the old Wild Oats stores kept the same system until the unified rollout. A new build store opened across the street from my former apartment and had Toshiba with Epson two sided receipt printers, only to have every single piece of hardware in the store removed and replaced with the unified system two months after the grand opening. I remember a store in Monterey that had the two line green screen IBM registers and they had a sticker on every one with the name of a very local sounding company like "Monterey Bay Cash Register Co."
Wild Oats was using all IBM and initially Whole Foods adopted IBM in some regions, was already using IBM in others, but the Central/TX region of Whole Foods was stuck on NCR and didn't want to change, even moved some Wild Oats in that region to NCR systems. They did eventually change that region to IBM. There was a period of 2-3 years before Amazon where Whole Foods was 100% IBM/Toshiba. But then as you point out right before Amazon took over they moved to an NCR based system and a big reason for that was the inability of the IBM/Toshiba to get Chip/Tap ready fast enough/cost effectively enough (that was another issue Grocery Outlet had with IBM/Toshiba that caused them to dump it).
I haven't seen this Elera anywhere. I will try to look at Holiday/Sav-Mor to see if they are possibly using it. I doubt they are though. Some of their more recent self checkout installs are not using the Toshiba equipment anymore. I think they have gotten self checkout into 100% of their stores by this point. I am wondering if the high cost of the Toshiba self checkout equipment is part of what pushed them to whatever this new system is.
Toshiba will just push more and more placed to other solutions if they push this Elera hard enough. The block of smaller operators who use Toshiba will probably be the first to go.
Kroger was pretty slow to move to the touchscreen version of the Toshiba but they eventually did maybe 3 years ago at Smiths (King Soopers was using it already quite a few years ago). Toshiba has been very aggressively pushing grocery chains to that system. I think they lost Grocery Outlet and Food Lion over trying to push them to that system. It seems like it is slower and also more difficult for them to process things like refunds, price changes, etc. on the touchscreen system.
Whole Foods and Holiday/Sav-Mor in NorCal both had Toshiba Touchscreen and ripped it out. Holiday I have no clue what system they are using currently, they are still using all the Toshiba hardware. https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/holiday ... gakdE_Meiw
I have never seen this system anywhere else. The self checkout interface this system has (which is being run on Toshiba hardware at some locations and some different hardware at other locations), I have never seen anywhere else either. This system is very fast. I had an overcharge there where I scanned an item twice and noticed after paying and the employee took me back to the self checkout, did something to log in (think it may have been fingerprint), scanned my receipt, which pulled up the transaction, and issued me a refund for the double scanned item in about 20 seconds.
This is the new Elera software Toshiba is pushing hard. I haven't seen it in any store yet... They want this to replace all those old IBM solutions. I believe it will run on other hardware.
Whole Foods had a hodgepodge of different systems until they rolled out a new unified system about the same time Amazon took over. It is unrelated to the Amazon takeover and that's why Fresh got a completely different register system, although I believe they are switching those to the WFM registers in the remodels where traditional self checkout is installed. WFM historically usually kept whatever was in the store on acquired locations, I know the old Wild Oats stores kept the same system until the unified rollout. A new build store opened across the street from my former apartment and had Toshiba with Epson two sided receipt printers, only to have every single piece of hardware in the store removed and replaced with the unified system two months after the grand opening. I remember a store in Monterey that had the two line green screen IBM registers and they had a sticker on every one with the name of a very local sounding company like "Monterey Bay Cash Register Co."
Wild Oats was using all IBM and initially Whole Foods adopted IBM in some regions, was already using IBM in others, but the Central/TX region of Whole Foods was stuck on NCR and didn't want to change, even moved some Wild Oats in that region to NCR systems. They did eventually change that region to IBM. There was a period of 2-3 years before Amazon where Whole Foods was 100% IBM/Toshiba. But then as you point out right before Amazon took over they moved to an NCR based system and a big reason for that was the inability of the IBM/Toshiba to get Chip/Tap ready fast enough/cost effectively enough (that was another issue Grocery Outlet had with IBM/Toshiba that caused them to dump it).
I haven't seen this Elera anywhere. I will try to look at Holiday/Sav-Mor to see if they are possibly using it. I doubt they are though. Some of their more recent self checkout installs are not using the Toshiba equipment anymore. I think they have gotten self checkout into 100% of their stores by this point. I am wondering if the high cost of the Toshiba self checkout equipment is part of what pushed them to whatever this new system is.
Toshiba will just push more and more placed to other solutions if they push this Elera hard enough. The block of smaller operators who use Toshiba will probably be the first to go.
I think the fundamental issue is Toshiba hardware is expensive, and it doesn't seem to be built to the quality of the old indestructible IBM equipment. This sends the retailers out looking for a better value on the hardware and they usually find a cheaper software partner at the same time. By trying to push a expensive hardware and software combo, Toshiba is pricing themselves out of the market entirely. And when you look at the relatively low capabilities of the computers inside these registers there is no reason for big companies to spend.
ClownLoach wrote: ↑April 2nd, 2024, 6:59 am
I think the fundamental issue is Toshiba hardware is expensive, and it doesn't seem to be built to the quality of the old indestructible IBM equipment. This sends the retailers out looking for a better value on the hardware and they usually find a cheaper software partner at the same time. By trying to push a expensive hardware and software combo, Toshiba is pricing themselves out of the market entirely. And when you look at the relatively low capabilities of the computers inside these registers there is no reason for big companies to spend.
You underestimate the retailers.
Most companies do not want to give the folks on the floor any more than they absolutely need. These 'underpowered' machines run just what they need to and no more. A standard POS won't do that because it runs Windows. You have to heavily manipulate Windows to lock everything down that far. Large companies will spend more for less to protect themselves from breaches and suits.
